Uncategorized - Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3 https://meminc.org/category/uncategorized/ Memories Incorporated, saving our social and entertainment history, one personal story at a time Mon, 24 Nov 2025 16:51:05 +0000 en-US hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 https://i0.wp.com/meminc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cropped-MemInc-Logo-copy2-1.png?fit=32%2C32&ssl=1 Uncategorized - Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3 https://meminc.org/category/uncategorized/ 32 32 189770205 After Tyra Heath https://meminc.org/aftertyraheath/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=aftertyraheath https://meminc.org/aftertyraheath/#comments Mon, 17 Nov 2025 19:39:52 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?p=1174

The 25th of June 1979 was a warm day in Mesquite, children were out playing, enjoying their summer vacation and it was a relatively quiet day in the city. However that all changed the afternoon of that same day when six year old Tyra Heath left apartment #1051 at Cascade Park to play outside. Ten minutes later her mother Janice Heath called for her to come back to their apartment however she did not come home and a quick search turned up that she was no longer where she had been playing earlier.

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After Tyra Heath

By Kanon Beltran

Many people remember the names Ashley Estell of Plano, Amber Hagerman of Arlington, Christi Meeks of Mesquite, or Christie Proctor of North Dallas. Their stories are seared into North Texas history. But years before Amber Alerts existed, before missing children appeared on milk cartons, before communities developed the tools we now take for granted, Dallas County was shaken by the disappearance and murder of six-year-old Tyra Heath in the summer of 1979. At that time, outside of the police department, neighbors could do little more than print flyers, knock on doors, and hope for a miracle.

News Clip from University of North Texas – Tyra Heath 

Today, the Cascade Park Apartments in Mesquite look like any other aging complex. The paint fades in the summer sun; the buildings have cycled through several colors and owners. From the street, there is nothing to suggest the heartbreak that unfolded here more than four decades ago. Yet this quiet complex holds the memory of one of Mesquite’s darkest moments—the story of Tyra Heath.

A Summer Afternoon Turns Tragic

Tyra Heath. Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

June 25, 1979 was a warm, seemingly ordinary day. Children filled the courtyards and sidewalks, enjoying their freedom from school. At apartment #1051, six-year-old Tyra Heath stepped outside to play, just as she had countless times before. Ten minutes later, when her mother, Janice Heath, called her home, Tyra didn’t answer. A quick search revealed she had vanished.

In the days that followed, rewards totaling $15,000 were offered for information. The Mesquite Police Department, joined by the FBI, canvassed the neighborhood repeatedly. Residents were interviewed again and again. Officers searched creeks, fields, and alleyways—on foot, horseback, even by helicopter. Homemade posters filled the community. A photo of Tyra was broadcast on KXAS-TV on June 29 in hopes that someone, somewhere, had seen something. But no solid leads emerged.

Tips poured in, but many were inconsistent or impossible to verify. Mesquite PD pursued everything—every rumor, every whisper, even a psychic reading. Still, nothing.

A Break in the Case

On July 5, an anonymous caller changed everything. The tipster named James Richard Harris, a 25-year-old sanitation worker from Seagoville who lived in the same complex as Tyra. Harris had told family members that Tyra had been playing with his son, that the back door had been left open, and that she must have run out. He even participated in the searches.

The caller disputed his account and provided precise information about where Tyra’s body could be found—an area in South Mesquite, just off Pioneer Road. After a lengthy search, officers discovered her remains exactly where the tipster described.

Harris voluntarily went to the police station when asked, but became visibly agitated and refused a polygraph. He was arrested and charged with murder, held on a $200,000 bond in the Dallas County Jail.

Clip from University of North Texas – James Richard Harris

Three days later, on July 8, while at Dallas Police Headquarters for questioning in unrelated offenses, Harris abruptly announced he wanted to confess to Tyra’s murder. A Dallas homicide sergeant called in a Mesquite officer to take the statement, and Harris was soon indicted.

It was not the ending anyone had hoped for, but it brought the Heath family at least a measure of closure. Tyra was laid to rest at Kaufman Cemetery.

A Community Changed Forever

Those who lived in Mesquite in 1979 still remember the fear that settled over Cascade Park Apartments after Tyra’s death. Children once free to roam the courtyard now stayed close to home. Parents abandoned the once-common practice of letting kids wander next door or down the block. Mesquite—like Dallas before it—lost a sense of innocence that summer.

And the tragedy did not stand alone. Mesquite would face another devastating child disappearance six years later, and another fourteen years after that. But in 1979, Tyra’s case was one of the most widely known in North Texas, even if her name has faded from public memory today.

Remembering Tyra

The suspect is found. Courtesy Dallas Morning News

Forty years later, few outside Mesquite recall the name Tyra Heath. Unlike Amber Hagerman or Ashley Estell—whose cases reshaped national policies—Tyra’s story has slipped into the quiet corners of history, remembered mainly by those who lived through that terrible summer.

The Heaths appear to have no public social media presence, and one can hardly blame them. The weight of such tragedy is not something everyone chooses to carry publicly.

But those who remember know the truth: Tyra mattered. Her life, though short, shaped a community. Her story is a reminder of a time before systems existed to protect missing children—a time when families and neighbors had only hope, determination, and each other.

Tyra Heath should not be forgotten.

Tyra Heath’s Grave, courtesy FindAGrave.com

Kanon Beltran

I ask that  you respect Tyra in your comments

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]]> https://meminc.org/aftertyraheath/feed/ 10 5301 Six Frogs Over Tango, Part 3 https://meminc.org/six-frogs-over-tango-part-3/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=six-frogs-over-tango-part-3 Mon, 22 Sep 2025 20:41:40 +0000 https://meminc.org/?p=8547 Scot Aubuchon The Frog Herder of Chuy’s When Scot Aubuchon introduces himself, he does it with a wink toward history. “My name’s Aubuchon — A-U-B-U-C-H-O-N. It’s French and loosely translates to ‘the cork,’ so I guess I had winemakers in my past somewhere,” he told me. I laughed and offered my own: “Heckmann in old […]

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Scot Aubuchon

The Frog Herder of Chuy’s

When Scot Aubuchon introduces himself, he does it with a wink toward history.

“My name’s Aubuchon — A-U-B-U-C-H-O-N. It’s French and loosely translates to ‘the cork,’ so I guess I had winemakers in my past somewhere,” he told me.

I laughed and offered my own: “Heckmann in old German means the guy that trims the hedges. Back in the old days, hedges were the fences in much of Germany. So here we are — a cork guy talking to a hedge trimmer.”

That lighthearted exchange set the tone for a conversation that traced the improbable journey of six fiberglass frogs — Bob “Daddy-O” Wade’s Tango Frogs — from a Dallas rooftop to truck stops, patios, and finally back home again under Aubuchon’s watch.

Three of the Tango Frogs on top of Chuy’s on Lower Greenville in Dallas. Courtesy Lisa Wade

From Busboy to Decor Manager

Aubuchon joined Chuy’s in 1986, just a few years after Mike Young and John Zapp opened the original restaurant on Barton Springs in Austin.

“I opened the second Chuy’s up on North Lamar,” he recalled. “I started off bussing tables and just kind of worked my way up. Been around ever since. I know where a lot of the bodies are buried, so to speak.”

Decades later, he became Chuy’s decor manager — the man responsible for bringing the chain’s quirky visual identity to life in new locations. “Basically, I worked with development on the construction side. New openings, new designs, all that,” he said.

It was in that role that he inherited an unusual side job: caretaker of Wade’s giant frogs.

The Frogs on the Move

Wade’s Tango Frogs first captured imaginations in the early ’80s, perched on the roof of Shannon Wynne’s Dallas nightclub Tango. When city officials debated whether they were art or signage, the frogs became local legends. Eventually, Mike Young bought them and brought them into the Chuy’s family.

That began a decades-long game of musical chairs, with Aubuchon as the reluctant frog wrangler.

“I’ve basically been a frog herder for 20 years,” he laughed. “I’ve moved these things six times now.”

Three of the Frogs on top of Chuy’s in Nashville, Tennessee. Courtesy Scot Aubuchon

This list is Scot’s road trip with the Frogs:

  • From Houston’s “Crystal Palace”, Chuy’s on Richmond, where they lived behind the bar,

  • To the Shenandoah Chuy’s building,

  • Then back to Austin for refurbishing,

  • Off to Nashville, where they topped the downtown location around 2012,

  • Returned to Austin once again for another refresh,

  • And finally, trucked back up I-35 for their homecoming at Chuy’s on Greenville in Dallas.

The Six Tango Frogs back together in the same Tango Swamp as 4 decades earlier. In front of the Truck Yard before moving to their “forever home” at Chuy’s. Reunited! Courtesy Scot Aubuchon, Faith Schexnayder and Lisa Wade

On that last trip, Aubuchon couldn’t resist turning it into a rolling spectacle. “We put them on a flatbed truck and toured 35 a little bit. We stopped at Carl’s Corner, and as soon as we pulled up, the women there said, ‘Oh, the frogs are back!’

They came out, hugged them, took pictures. Even the mayor came out. It was like a reunion.”

Stories from Carl’s Corner

That pit stop brought out stories of the old truck stop’s wilder days. “They told me Carl’s Corner used to have an RV park with a pool out back,” Aubuchon said, shaking his head. “They said it was kind of like a mini-brothel. Truckers would call ahead and reserve an RV.”

He paused, then chuckled. “Now, I don’t know how much of that they’d want published. But man, the stories people tell when those frogs show up…”

Frogs, Fish, and Big-Ass Art

Through the years, Aubuchon came to know Bob “Daddy-O” Wade himself.
“He was just one of those guys who could make you laugh as soon as he walked in the room,” Aubuchon said. “I met him when we first refreshed the frogs. Such a creative spirit. You know, one time he even had one of his giant fish sculptures on top of the Knox-Henderson Chuy’s building. Today it’s sitting out in Lake Austin by the Hula Hut.”

Bigmouth Bass on display at The Big One, Dallas. Courtesy Lisa Wade and Daddy-0’s Book of Big Ass Art

Like Wade’s other oversized creations, the frogs weren’t just decoration — they were conversation pieces, roadside attractions, and living folklore.

The End of an Era

After 39 years with Chuy’s, Aubuchon’s time with the company is winding down. The chain was recently acquired by Darden, and his department is being phased out. “It’s a gut punch,” he admitted. “I even asked if I could buy the frogs. They’re too cool for Darden, if you ask me.”

Still, he takes pride in their journey — and in his role as their shepherd. “When we brought them back to Greenville, three blocks from their original spot at Tango, it just felt right. From a marketing standpoint, it was a no-brainer. From a cultural standpoint, it was bringing them home.”

For Aubuchon, the frogs represent more than rebar, structure, molding and paint. They are proof that art can take on a life of its own — moving across states, stopping traffic on I-35, sparking rumors in truck stops, and reminding people of Dallas nightlife in the ’80s.

“I’ve been their frog herder for 20 years,” he said with a grin. “Not a bad legacy to leave behind.”

Timeline for Bob “Daddy-O” Wade, Tango & the Tango Frogs

(Courtesy ‘Bob “Daddy-O” Wade’s Book of Big Ass Art, multiple news sources and all the folks interviewed for this piece. This is a living document, if you have updates, please send them to pheckmann@meminc.org)

Jan 6th, 1943 – Robert Schrope Wade born in Austin, Texas.

Family was in Hotel Management and moved every couple of years, from Corpus, to Waco, Galveston, to Beaumont, to San Antonio and finally settled down in 1954 in El Paso.

1961 – Bob designs the yearbook for his HS. He graduates and moves to Austin to attend UT. Joins Kappa Sigma fraternity and gets his lifelong moniker of “Daddy-O”. Makes friends with Monk White and others that he will keep working with over the years

1964 – Bob meets his new buddy, Kinky Friedman

1965 – graduates from UT and is accepted at Cal – Berkley

1966 – graduates from Berkley with a Masters in painting. Joins the original faculty at McLennan Community College (MCC) in Waco as the only art instructor.

Waco Bookmobile, spray painted library. Courtesy Lisa and Rachel Wade and Daddy-O’s Book of Big Ass Art, 1968

1967 – does a solo show, The Weenie Paintings at Atelier Chapman Kelly in Dallas.

The Funny Farm, in Waco, Collection of the Waco Arts Project, Courtesy Lisa and Rachel Wade

1968 – does first outdoor sculpture, Funny Farm Family for San Antonio World’s Fair. Now located in Waco, for the Waco Arts Project

1970 – becomes ‘Artist in Residence’ at Northwood Institute in the Dallas suburb of Cedar Hill

1973 – Becomes buddies with Dennis Hopper in Taos, New Mexico. Joins the Faculty at North Texas State University as Assistant Professor of Art

1975 – Sets up a photography darkroom in an underground silo bunker at NTSU. Meets the Texas Kid

1976 – His “Bicentennial Map of the United States” is featured in a 2-page spread in People Magazine

Bob’s Texas Mobil Home Museum for 10th Paris Biennale

1977 – His Texas Mobile Home Museum is featured in Paris at the 10th Biennale of Paris. Resigns from North Texas

1978 – Moves into old, wooden building owned by Monk White, which becomes “Daddy-O’s Patios”. Goes to Art Park near Niagara Falls in NY to start work on his massive Iguana. Sells the iguana to Lone Star Cafe in Manhattan. Meets NY Mayor Ed Koch and other celebrities during and after the installation on top of the Cafe.

1979 – Builds 40 ft Cowboy boots at Washington Project for the Arts. Boots are bought by Rouse and Company and shipped back to Texas to the North Star Mall.

1982 – Drives “machine gunned” Bonnie and Clyde car in the New Orleans Mardi Gras parade

1983 – Builds the Tango Frogs for his friend, Shannon Wynne. Tango opens

1984 – Bob moves his studio to Deep Ellum. Tango closes on March 7, 1984.

Daddy-O with his painting of The Texas Kid Boz commissioned for the interior of Boz Skaggs’ BLUE LIGHT CAFE in San Francisco 1985, courtesy Boz Skaggs, Monk White and friends

1985 – All six went to Carl’s Corner, and three went on an art tour all over the place. The other three were over the gas pumps. 

1986-88 – Three of the Frogs went on an art tour all over the country, including a 1988 stop at Texas A&M. The other three remained at Carl’s, which would become Willie’s Place.

1989 – Bob and Lisa welcome their daughter, Rachel, into the world.

1990 – Carl’s caught on fire, the three Frogs over the gas pumps were fine. The three others were around back, out of the fire. They had some burned fingers, but that was all

Three frogs left Carl’s on their way to Austin first, then to Houston. The other three later leaped across I-35 into Carl’s home’s front yard!

  • They went from Houston’s “Crystal Palace” to Chuy’s on Richmond, where they lived behind the bar.
  • Then to the Shenandoah Chuy’s building

2010 – Approximately – Then back to Austin for refurbishing,

2012 – Three of the Frogs leaped up to Nashville, where they topped the downtown Chuy’s location around 2012,

2023-2025 – Returned to Austin once again for another refresh

2025 – And finally, trucked back up I-35 for their homecoming at Chuy’s on Greenville in Dallas.

2025 – On that last trip, Scot Aubuchon, Lisa Wade, and Faith Schexnayder couldn’t resist turning it into a rolling spectacle. “We put them on a flatbed truck and toured I-35 a little bit. We stopped at Carl’s Corner, and as soon as we pulled up, the women there said, ‘Oh, the frogs are back!’ They came out, hugged them, and took pictures. Even the mayor came out. It was like a reunion.”

Bob “Daddy-O” Wade’s Various Projects Today

(if you have updates, please send them to me! pheckmann@meminc.org)

Abilene

Abilene – Dino Bob at the Center for Children’s Illustrated Literature, 133 Cedar St. This sculpture once sat across the street from the Grace Museum. When it was slated for demolition, the schoolchildren of Abilene mounted a “Save Dino Bob” campaign, and the sculpture was moved to the roof of another parking garage, this one overlooking the National Center for Children’s Illustrated Literature. It’s a sculpture based on the 1988 children’s book Dinosaur Bob and His Adventures with the Family Lazardo. Today, it’s located at 133 Cedar Street in downtown Abilene. It is part of the city’s Storybook Sculpture Project., courtesy BobWade.com

Dallas

Dallas – Six Frogs over Tango originally at 1827 Greenville Ave. Today, three sit atop the Chuy’s on Lowest Greenville and three atop the Truck Yard a few blocks away. Originally commissioned for club Tango, the frogs survived multiple relocations, including a stint at Carl’s Corner near Hillsboro, where they almost became Frog legs, sizzling on the grill when it burned to the ground. Three were outback and three on top of the gas pumps, which, through some act of God, did not blow up. Carl’s Corner housed two of Bob’s other projects, a truck-shaped billboard and a giant wooden nickel, both prominently displayed going South on I-35. Three frogs were sold to Chuy’s and eventually moved to Nashville, while the other three lived on top of Taco Cabana, then Starbucks, then Truck Yard. All six are now close to their original Dallas location, Courtesy Lisa Wade

Austin

The New Orleans Saints giant football helmet, made from a Volkswagen body.at Shoal Creek Saloon. The “Austin Home of New Orleans Saints Fans,” at 909 North Lamar Boulevard, courtesy BobWade.com

The Big One: Spitting Fish (both Austin and Dallas). First, at restaurant The Big One in Dallas, then the Hula Hut at 3825 Lake Austin Blvd in Austin,  When Big One was sold, another restaurant, the Hula Hut, bought the fish. It sits in the Colorado River next to the tables closest to the river. For a couple of bucks you can “feed the fish,” which means you can watch it spit water and “bubbles” escape from its backside….courtesy BobWade.com

“Neck N Neck,” a two-headed longhorn at the County Line BBQ restaurant, courtesy BobWade.com

Ranch 616 restaurant’s rattlesnake, from a pencil sketch by Bob Wade, turned into neon by Evan Voyles

“The world’s longest longhorn horns” are currently hanging in the University of Texas Alumni Center. Courtesy Daddy-O’s Big Ass Book of Art

Muleshoe – Giant Prickly Pear Cactus on the Roof, Leal’s Mexican Restaurant, 1010 W. American Blvd. (no photo, shoot me one if you got one)

Wade built this life-like piece for a restaurant in Dallas. As he was driving back from New Mexico, he saw his Dallas project in Muleshoe. He had no idea when or how it was moved. It’s 30 feet high

San Antonio

San Antonio – World’s Largest Cowboy Boots at North Star Mall, Loop 410 at San Pedro Ave.
Standing feet tall, these iconic boots were originally installed at the Washington, D.C. Arts Center before being relocated to San Antonio more than 30 years ago. Back in 1979, Bob’s big, oversized art had just taken off with his giant Iguana sitting on top of the Lone Star Cafe in Manhattan, NYC, and Bob was invited to build something interesting in a vacant lot in Washington, DC. Bob made the boots, ‘just to fit’ inside the lot. 40 ft high fake ostrich Cowboy boots. It took him a month and a half to build them; he was paid $7,000. Completed Sept 12, 1979. Bob laid claim to the “World’s Largest Cowboy Boots” – out of thin air! (It is…) He had no idea if that was true or not; it was just Bob being Bob. The boots only stood there for about 4 months before North Star Mall in San Antonio bought them, and they were moved back to Texas. The mall owners spent 80 grand in 2012 just to redo the tops of those boots. These boots are in the Guinness Book of World Records! Courtesy BobWade.com

San Antonio – Junkyard Dog, Alamo City Inc., 1201 Somerset Rd.  Built from a 1966 Plymouth Fury balanced on its end, this sculpture was made for a buddy who left law to start a used auto parts business. It remains a quirky landmark. Courtesy BobWade.com

Houston

 

Smokesax at The Orange Show Center for Visionary Art, 2401 Munger St.
Originally built for Phil Kensinger for his Billy Blues Bar, in 2012, the Kensinger family donated the monumental sculpture to the Orange Show Center for Visionary Art, due to the organization’s long-standing commitment to preserving Houston’s cultural icons. This massive sax was made from a Volkswagen body, an oilfield pipe, and has a surfboard as a mouthpiece. After over 20 years at its original site, it was relocated to The Orange Show Center. There were plans to move it to Kensinger Plaza at one time.
Lisa Wade: “The Orange Show has been working with the Houston Parks Foundation and has the plans for a park, with a music venue and the sax. It’s going to be an incredible site; they’ve been wonderful to work with. Lots still going on, which is so wonderful and a tribute to Bob.” Courtesy FullOrangeShow.org

NYC/Fort Worth

Fort Worth – Iggy the Iguana at Fort Worth Zoo, on the roof of the herpetarium This 40-foot polyurethane Iguana, installed in 2010, was built for the Artpark in Upstate New York, and then it watched over the Lone Star Café in New York City for 13 years. “It was on Pier 25 in Lower Manhattan. The pier has a miniature golf course, and one of the holes is named for Bob and has an iguana on the sign.. Acquired by Lee M. Bass in 1999, it was later loaned to the Zoo to complement its new herpetarium.” Lisa Wade, Courtesy BobWade.com

Waco

Waco – Funny Farm Family at the Art Center at McLennan Community College, 1300 College Dr . Created in 1968 from colorful bomb casings and steel, this whimsical still life was originally made for HemisFair Park in San Antonio. It is Wade’s earliest public art piece in Texas. Plans are underway to move it to a new sculpture garden at 701 S. Eighth St.

Del Rio

 

Del Rio – Giant Six-shooter at Humphrey’s Gun Shop, 124 E. Garfield Ave. Constructed from a barrel, stovepipe, and stucco, this oversized revolver was built after Wade was invited to create a local piece during a lecture visit. Funded by the gun shop, the sculpture now appears in its online advertising. Courtesy HumphreyGunShop.com

“When I first saw the Frogs on top of Carl’s Corner Truck Stop in Carl’s Corner, Texas, my first thought was, ‘What the hell is Carl on? Now that I understand art, I realize what a genius Daddy O-Wade was.”

Willie Nelson

Thanks to so many folks for helping out with this Tango Frogs project, including the fella that kicked it off, Shannon Wynne, his brother and MemInc Board Emeritus Angus Wynne III, editing by Mike Farris, the Memories Admins Mark Cheyne, Chris Doelle, all of our 20ish Moderators, Lisa Wade and the spirit of her hubby Bob “Daddy-O” Wade, Scot Aubuchon formerly of Chuy’s, Faith Shexnayder, fixer extraordinaire, Tom and Laura Garrison of the new Stoneleigh P and of course Monk White, without whom a lot of this wouldn’t have come together!

And of course, all the members of our Facebook Groups, Memories of Dallas, Memories of Texas and Memories of Texas Music, who contributed greatly.

If you liked this project, please help us keep them coming. Donate We are a 501c3, Memories Inc, EIN 83-0566883

If you missed Parts 1 and 2

Six Frogs Over Tango, Part 1

Six Frogs Over Tango, Part 2

Six Frogs Over Tango, Part 3

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]]> 8547 WANT TO SUBMIT A STORY? https://meminc.org/want-to-submit-a-story/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=want-to-submit-a-story Fri, 15 Jan 2021 17:35:40 +0000 https://memoriesoftexasfootball.org/?p=1267 Share your own Memories of Texas Football. Submit your topic and a quick summary via our contact page.

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]]> 5465 WANT TO SUBMIT A STORY? https://meminc.org/submit-a-story/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=submit-a-story Fri, 09 Oct 2020 10:19:53 +0000 http://indiegroundthemes.com/journey/version4/?p=48

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]]> 48 BURTON GILLIAM – “IT’S BUBBA!” https://meminc.org/burtongilliam/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=burtongilliam https://meminc.org/burtongilliam/#comments Thu, 01 Oct 2020 23:07:45 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=2603

I went back to the fire station after 'Paper Moon', and about three months later I got this phone call. “Fire Station number 39, Gilliam speaking”. “Hello, my name is Mel Brooks. I’m a writer, director, producer, actor, and I’m getting ready to do a big picture, and I want you to be one of my stars.” I said, 'Thank you Mr. Brooks.' Boom, I just hung up the phone. What if he hadn’t called back? I’d have those two cows and living out in East Texas, wouldn’t I?

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Burton Gilliam – “It’s Bubba!”

by Paul Heckmann, Exec Director, Memories Incorporated

Photos scanned and digitized by Scot Dorn. Official Photographer and Archivist for Memories Incorporated

A tip of the hat to Linda McAlister for playing the straight man to a couple of banana’s at lunch

Sitting down for lunch with my longtime friend Linda McAlister and my newest lifelong friend Burton “Bubba” Gilliam at Campisi’s Egyptian on Mockingbird. Sitting in the Jack Ruby booth under the watchful painted eyes of Papa Campisi and his son Joe.

We did this a little different from our normal interviews because Burton knows so much about this history of Dallas. I was very impressed. For those that think he is just a boxer, or a retired fireman or a guy that sits around a fire farting all the time or whatever picture you have in your head of him, he is much more than that. A very sharp fella! So imagine you are the 4th person at the table. Anyway, there was much cool stuff in here while we were waiting for our food, I left a lot of the back and forth in as they all went somewhere. Hope you enjoy.

BTW – although he has 16 years on me and is in his 80s, I’m pretty sure if we got in the ring today, he would still pummel me.

ADD – we met for Part Deux at Norma’s Cafe at Park and Central with Bill Ziegler, one of the great folks Burton has worked with.

With Clint Eastwood as the welder in ”Thunderbolt and Lightfoot’

Paul Heckmann: Thanks so much for taking a little time out of your day Burton

Burton Gilliam: You bet. Memories of Dallas. I love what you guys are doing!

Paul: Thanks so much. We are having such a good time.. It’s crazy, 60-80 hours a week for two years and haven’t been paid a penny!

Burton: You are crazy! (laughs) Thanks so much for inviting me to lunch.

Paul: You bet. This is going to be a great conversation, I can tell that right now!

And Linda, its been a long time since we saw each other face to face.

Linda McAlister: It’s been about 20 years.

Burton: Really? You guys really haven’t talked for a while. It’s really been that long?

Linda: I think it has. We talk on line but in person, it’s been a while, hasn’t it?

Paul: Well, I think the last time I saw you in person was when you booked me for a theater gig at Morten Myerson Auditorium and came by to see me.

Linda: Oh, that’s right. I’d forgotten about that.

Burton: Now, what was that in?

Paul: It was a July the 4th presentation. I played Teddy Roosevelt, and thank goodness I only had a couple of lines; I’m sitting there, the spotlight on me for over two hours each show, sweltering in those super thick, heavy cotton period costumes.

Burton: And you forgot one of the lines!

Paul: Even worse, I was soooo hot and sweaty up there, I forgot where it went! We were doing other things like singing, all the typical July 4th Independence Day tunes, but I had to wait so long to deliver my lines, thank goodness that almost all my parts were ‘but…’ and facial expressions, I might have lost my place but for my friend Rebecca who was playing my wife Edith, she was my cue card.

Linda: Yeah, that’s right. I’d forgotten about that.

Paul: Back in those days, I was pretty hefty. Had a bad fall working on a TV show. Strange how the pounds come on soooo much quicker than they leave, so I didn’t need a lot of padding for the fat Teddy Roosevelt.

Burton: Oh, golly.

Linda: He was a big guy.

Paul: Yeah, I was a bit too big, about 300. Now I’m 2/3rds the man I used to be. Sticking at just over 200 is pretty comfortable for me.

Burton: Ha (laughs). Well, good for you.

Paul: Well, that’s way too much about me. Let’s talk Burton Gilliam!

Linda McAlister, Burton ‘Bubba’ Gilliam and Paul Heckmann at Campisi’s

Burton: You bet.

Paul: Once you agreed to this interview, the first person I got hold of was Rains Kyle.

Burton: Rains Kyle, from Woodrow Wilson?

Paul: Yep. I knew that he would have something to say about the great Bubba Gilliam! He’s an authority on anything Woodrow Wilson HS.

Burton: That is so true.

And do you know everybody knows him as Rains Kyle. Do you know what his name is?

Paul: From that question, I would guess it’s not Rains Kyle.

Burton: No, its not. It’s Kyle Rains. Somebody read his last name first and started calling him Rains Kyle and it stuck.

Paul: Amazing. For the purpose of this interview, I’m sticking with Rains Kyle. I have a hard enough time remembering names!

Pecan Heights area in old South Dallas. Arrow points to the approximate area where Lone Star Drive-in was.

So Burton, Rains told me that you are from from the Parkdale, Urbandale area

Burton: You bet. Actually, I’m not even from Parkdale, I’m from Pecan Heights. Do you know where Pecan Heights is?

Paul: I don’t think I do.

Burton: How do I explain it? A lot of the street names have changed. You know where the Lonestar Drive in theater was?

Many folk think Burton went from the cradle to the campfire. Here’s proof he was actually a kid.

Paul: Yes, that I do. Down below Tennison Park, wasn’t it?

Burton: That is correct. Go up on top of the hill. Right up there is where Pecan Heights starts and it goes all the way, like, three block down under the railroad track down there. That’s Pecan Heights.

Paul: Oh, my gosh. Now at this time you guys didnt really have a ‘local’ HS, did you? Samuel hadn’t been built yet.

Burton: No, Woodrow was it. Their district went all the way from Woodrow to Pleasant Grove to Garland

Paul: So, you had the Grove Rats and the Lakewood Rats in the same building?

2nd Lt. Burton Gilliam, Woodrow Wilson ROTC

Burton: You got that right. And the Lakewood Rats, I think they were the toughest. Because they had parents who could bail them out of jail.

Kids from Pleasant Grove, their Mom and Dad would just say, “Hey, please keep ‘em. You feed’em!”

Paul: Tough it out kid. Oh, my gosh.

So, was that what started you boxing?

Burton: Actually I was a bit older. I think I was 17. My brother had fought the year before, and he won a couple of fights. And at that time, I weighed about 5’11 and 127 pounds, and I said, “Well, I might like to get in there and fight,” and he said, “Oh no, don’t you do it.”

I was always small, but I was athletic. But he said, “Oh no, you’ll get hurt.” Well, next year rolled around and my brother had gone into the Navy, and the guy around the corner, George Hopkins – golly, good old George Hopkins. He and I worked out together. In my driveway we had three gloves and a house shoe. 

Paul: A house shoe?

Burton; Yep, a house shoe. The guy with the house shoe couldn’t really hit with that, of course. But that’s what we worked out in.

We both went down to sign up for the Golden Gloves. They said, “Hey, you all don’t have a team?” “No.” “Well, would you like to join?” And that’s how we ended up fighting for the Compton Citadel over in South Dallas. There were about 7 fighters in the club.

Now I had never been in any ring in my life before Golden Gloves, but we did it anyway. Our team won five fights. I won three, George won one and all the rest of the guys on the team won one. 

Paul: That’s crazy!

So, in doing my homework for this interview I ran across the name Earl Gilliam. Is he a relative?

Burton in his early days of boxing

Burton: How do I know that name?

Paul: From boxing. He had a boxing promotion called Tampa Boxing.

Burton: Oh, he was the guy from down in Tyler. Yes, he was.

Paul: I believe so.

Burton: That’s Earl Gilliam. He was a promoter. He promoted down there mostly, golly, I hadn’t thought about him in years. But he promoted a couple or three fights here in Dallas.

Paul: Yes, that’s where I ran across the name.

Burton: Okay. That’s Earl.

Paul: No relation?

Burton: No. But my father is from Tyler. We used to have a big family reunion down there every year. It was huge, 500 people would come. But Earl Gilliam isnt one of them.

I’m a Gilliam, but my family always called it ‘Gill-em’. When I went to Hollywood, my first agent said, “Burton Gillem, Burton Gillem. There’s too much Burton” he said, “Let’s call him Burton Gilliam.” (Gill-E-Um)

I said, “Okay.” And so, I’m the only one in my family who’s ever said Gilliam. You didn’t know that, did you Linda?

Linda: I did not know that.

Burton: Yeah.

Linda: Well, is Gilliam the actual spelling?

Burton: Yeah, it’s the same spelling.

1962 Golden Gloves

It’s just the way it’s pronounced. And if my father had known that I’d be in show business…I know if he’d known that I was changing the pronunciation to Gilliam, he would not have liked that at all. He and my mom passed away some time back. He wouldn’t have gone for that.

Paul: Oh, my gosh. So, was was your dad into boxing?

Burton: Oh no. No, no, no. He knew nothing about boxing, but every time I fought in Dallas, and you know, I fought a lot in Dallas, and he was a fireman too. If he was working, well, he’d take off work, or not, and he’d always get four or five guys and come down and watch me fight. You know, parents, fathers of fighters, they’re always right there in the corner, and they’re always there telling this and that. My father knew nothing about it. He would come down before my fight, and he’d just tell me, “You go out there and do your best, and I’m up here pulling for you. I’ve got all my friends up here.” And they would sit up there in the farthest reaches of the place and pull for me.

Burton and Gene’s listing in 1962 GG tourney

Paul: Yeah, he didn’t want to see his baby boy get hurt. You know that.

And of course firemen have to be tough.

Burton: Yeah, that’s right. He was there to make sure that I didn’t get hurt, but he did not know anything about fighting. So, he’d just get up there and root for me.

Paul: Oh, my gosh, that’s such a good story. I like that.

So, you had 217 fights?

Burton: Yeah. And I won 201 of them.

Paul: That’s amazing.

Linda: It really is.

Burton: I should have only lost to one guy.

Paul: Who was that?

Burton: Guy named Jerry Turner. He beat me twice. He was from San Antonio, that was back when they had NCAA fighting. He was the NCAA champion for the University of Wisconsin for three years.

He was got two doctorates from the University of Wisconsin. He was a Jewish kid who was adopted. He was the best guy, nicest kid, but boy when he got in the ring, he was a monster. He docked my brother out cold, he beat me twice on a split decisions, we fought hard man. But he’s the only one I should have lost to. The others, you know, they sneak up on you sometimes.

Jessie Valdez at Munich Olympics (Getty Images/ABC)

Paul: How about Jessie Valdez?

Burton: I beat Jessie twice. Wow, that’s amazing that you know that. How do you know Jessie?

Paul: I told ya, I do my homework!

Linda, let me tell you, this guy Jesse Valdez was good, he was the Olympic bronze medalist.

Linda: Oh, my god.

Burton: He was a lightweight, and moved up to welterweight in the summer of like, 1959 or ’60, or somewhere along there. And they had some fights down in Houston, and asked me if I’d come down there and fight him, and I thought, “Oh my god. Ohhhh, my god, what am I doing?.” But you know what? I was at my best when I was scared. And I was scared. I was scared a lot. I don’t mean on the edge; I’m talking about fear. But I found out, and I’ve said this many times, and nobody’s ever said it before me, I thought it up, but it’s true, fear and speed go hand in hand, whether you’re fighting or running.

Linda: Gosh, no kidding.

Paul: Not much chance to run in a ring.

Burton: Oh boy yeah! Jesse could really fight though.

Paul: Oh, he was good.

The early days of Burton’s Golden Gloves career. “Bobby Ragland was mean as can be. I knocked him down and he would come back a’wailing. I would knock him down again and there he would be again.’

Burton: And when the fight was over, he was such a good guy. The two times I fought him, when it was over, when the bell would ring when it was over, he’d always pick me up and carry me around the ring.

Paul: Linda, you have to put this in perspective of who Jesse Valdez was This guy was a six time Texas state welterweight champ, a two times national Golden Gloves champ and also the Bronze medalist in the Olympics and possibly the Gold medalist if not for some questionable scoring. That’s how good this guy was, and Burton beat him twice.

Linda: Awesome

Burton: He was the real deal.

Paul: I saw some video of him on there, and he was fast.

Burton: Really fast. He was 5’10”, and long and lean, and boy he could hit hard.

Paul: You competed at 145 pound class?

Burton: One forty-seven, but you got it. Welterweight. When I fought him, he’d just moved up to welter for a couple of summers and always moved back down to lightweight.

Paul: Did you know Sugar Ray Phillips?

Burton: The name doesn’t sound familiar.

Paul: Probably a little bit after your time. He’s more in the ‘70s. He was one of these guys I knew from Doug’s gym. You know, downtown, you know what I’m talking about.

Burton: Sure. Oh, I do. 

Paul: Very smart guy. Looked just like Clark Gable, only with a barrel chest.

Burton: Tell me about Ray Phillips.

Paul: He was a national Golden Gloves champ in the mid-70′. As a pro he fought Marvin Hagler, and took him to the 7th round before he got knocked out.

Burton: Before he got knocked out.

Paul: Yeah. Everybody got knocked out by Marvin Hagler. That’s the way it was. That guy was just nasty mean. Speaking of pros, how come you didn’t go the paying route Burton?

Burton: Yes, Hagler had a mean streak.

I almost turned pro a couple of times. 

Doug’s Gym, finally closed a couple of years ago after 60ish years

Paul: Sugar Ray and my buddy Doug Eidd had made a deal, Doug set him up in this building next to him. Okay? Now, Doug was cheap. Cheap. Cheap. Cheap. You know?

Burton: (laughs) Do tell.

Paul: Yeah. Everything in the gym was second and third hand

Burton: Oh, my gosh. That’s right.

Paul: The floor was all covered with pieces of carpet. Carpet remnants like a salesman would show you.

Well, he made a deal with Sugar Ray to open up a little boxing gym. So, what Doug did, he rented the second floor in the building next door. Now you have to remember we’re up in the second floor where the main gym was for half a century. And back then the buildings were only a couple of feet apart. So what does Doug do? He hires some fellas off the street, in front of the gym, to knock a hole in the wall and he put a board across it, and that’s how you got to the boxing ring next door.

Burton: (laughs) Oh gosh. But that sounds like something he would do.

Paul: Can you imagine trying to do that today?

Burton: Now, today you can go into a boxing gym and they got a lot of very nice equipment there. Back then, it wasn’t nearly that way.

Linda: It was a lot more makeshift.

Burton: You guys were talking about Curtis Cokes on Memories of Dallas yesterday. It had a big picture painted by Dmitri Vail. Do you remember Dmitri Vail?

Paul: Oh yes, a great Dallas artist.

Curtis Cokes and Doug Lord by Dimitri Vail

Burton: And it was on the wall, and they had his certification of authenticity. And I didn’t bring it with me. It’s a picture of Curtis in his corner with another Doug, Doug Lord leaning over his shoulder talking. I knew him probably better than anybody I knew in the boxing business outside of all the people that gathered right here, and there were a bunch of them.

Paul: Oh, my gosh. 

Dickie Cole

We spoke on the phone the other day of Bennie Bickers, and I forgot all about that. Big time boxing ref in the 30s and 40s. I am working on a big project on him now.

Burton: Golly.

(while we were working on this story I got a call from Burton that his lifelong friend Dickie Cole has passed away. Cole had been involved in boxing for 66 years. The former two-time Dallas Golden Gloves champion, 1950-51, served as a referee and judge at the amateur and professional levels. He was a former president of the North American Boxing Federation and Ratings Chairman for the World Boxing Council. Cole had spent 20 years, 1993-2014, as head of the Combative Sports for Texas Department of Licensing & Regulations, which oversees boxing in Texas.)

Paul: According to the information I have found and from one of his sons, Bennie was one of the lieutenants under Warren Diamond. Warren Diamond was a Dallas mob boss at the turn of the century, and he died in the 30’s from cancer. Under Diamond, you had Benny Binion, Bennie Bickers, and Ben Whitaker. Now to be clear, one of Bennie’s other sons tells me his dad was simply a sportsman. My research agrees with the first one but in the upcoming story I presented both sides of the story.

Burton: Those were “The Three Bennies”.

Paul: That’s right, you’ve heard of them! Binion ran numbers (his wheel) out of the Southland Hotel. Bennie Bickers ran it out of the Whitmore Hotel, which was owned by Ben Whitaker. And they all ran Top of the Hill Casino.

Burton: You bet. It was very famous, and all the celebrities came to Dallas in the ‘40s and the ‘50s. That’s where they went. The normal folks did not know about it. But I knew. It was kind of anything goes place. There was gambling, big time gambling.

Paul: They had ladies of the night, and they had tunnels underneath where you could escape if they got raided.

Burton: I guarantee you; Joe and Sam Campisi knew all about it.

Linda: Aren’t those tunnels still there. I don’t think they’ve closed them off, have they?

Paul: That’s what I’ve read that they’re still there.

Linda: Yeah, there’s a tunnel city under Dallas that they still utilize. Not everybody knows. I have no idea where they are though. I wonder if it had something to do with the old speakeasies and clubs and stuff.

Burton: Is that right? And that’s where all of the service recruiting places were back in the ‘50s. And remember going down and joining the Coast Guard when I was 18 years old.

Paul: We are gonna get back to Dallas history and ‘The History of Bubba’ in a minute, but first, thank you for your service. How long were you in the Coast Guard?

Burton Gilliam, Coast Guard Boxing Team

Burton: Two years. My deal was to do two years in reserves and then two years on active duty, then two years back in the reserves again. Well, I did about two years, went on active duty, and – you know, each summer when you’re on reserves you go two weeks. Two years I went down to New Orleans, and they fixed me up with some fights there, and they found out I could fight. So, my two years in the Coast Guard was spent on the Coast Guard boxing team. That was it. That was it.

Paul: So you’re training for boxing full time.

Burton: That’s it. That’s what I did, and I worked out of New Orleans Athletic Club with a bunch of pros down there. Golly.

Paul: They taught you some tricks you may not have known?

Burton: Oh yes, Ralph Dupas and Willy Postrano, both of those fellas were were world champions. 

Paul: They were excellent boxers!

(We took a short break to order Campisi’s finest)

Burton: You were talking about Louann’s on your page the other day. That was the place for high school kids to go dance, and older people too, but man it was a great place. No alcohol was served there.

Linda: Oh, my gosh. That’s right.

Burton: Those people were wonderful.

Paul: Ann Bovis said something like “Well, the parents liked for the kids to be here where they know I’m watching out for them.”

Burton: There you go.

Paul: And they very seldom had fights there, but her brother came in, Marty came in at about 1938, ’39, when they were still working for the Texas Centennial and Pan American. He was a tough old warhorse and handled the ruffians.

The Bovis bought the Globe Theater and Olde English Pub after the 1936 Centennial. And part of Louann’s is actually built from those buildings of the old theater. So, I just love this stuff!

Burton: Keep a’going! You certainly know a lot about Dallas. Are you from here?

Paul: I’m grew up in a little town outside of Waco. I moved up here in December 1976. And I’ve been living here mostly, except for 1984-1990 when I worked on the high seas for Carnival Cruise Lines.

Burton: Well, you’ve certainly done your homework on Dallas.

Linda: He certainly has.

Paul: We also just added Memories of Texas Football, so we’re doing football from peewee on up to the pros with cheerleaders and everything. I hope they’re gonna play off of each other.

Burton: Sure. Hell, they’re all intertwined in some way or another.

Well, what do you consider yourself. Are you a writer now? What do you say you are?

Paul: I’m more of a collector of information, an archivist.

Burton: You stick to it. You are doing a great job.

Paul: As much fun as this is, we need to know a little more about the Burton Gilliam story. Let’s talk ‘Bubba’!

Burton: Works for me. I guess one thing is that since we are eating here, gotta tell you that my brother married into the Campisi family, the extended side. His in-laws were the Martinez people.

He married Mary Miller. Do you remember Joe Miller? Joe and Mary Miller that owned Miller’s Grocery Store on the corner Fitzhugh and Buena Vista.

Ms. Miller was Joe and Sam’s sister. And then Mary’s sister married John Michael Martinez of the El Fenix bunch. I think there was some incest going on.

Linda: Sounds like it.

Paul: They’re still cooking our food so I’m not gonna comment on that.

Amber Campisi

But they certainly turned out some good looking kids. Corky’s daughter is a classic beauty, oh my god.

Burton: Yeah. Oh, my god is right! She was in Playboy.

Linda: Oh, wow.

Paul: And she deserved it. I’ll put it that way.

Burton: And yes she did. And you could come and here, and Corky would meet you, and he’d say, “Hey, have you seen my daughter’s picture? Come on back there.” And here she is in her birthday suit, bare as the day she was born.

Amber. That’s her name. Corky was so proud.

I met Corky when he was probably 12 or 13 years old, and until he was about 20, you talk about, he was one of the best looking guys you’ve ever seen. I mean, he just had a look about him. Boy, he was such a good looking kid. Golly. Joe was his father.

Paul: Burton, here’s a little tidbit for you, this whole stripmall was built by my roommate’s dad, Joe Bourn and his partner Bill Blessing. They actually rented to the Grisaffi’s that were here before the Campisi’s.

Burton: Oh, really?

Original 1950 lease of the Egyptian between Bourn, Blessing and Cupples with Grisaffi and Perretta

Paul: So Steven tells me that Joe’s wife allegedly asked Joe to boot the Grisaffi’s out of the lease as she felt some hanky-panky was going on

Burton: (laughs) Really?

Linda: What happened?

Paul: I don’t know the details, but that’s how Papa Campisi got the lease. And the name too! David Campisi said that they couldn’t afford to stock the restaurant yet AND change the name so they kept the neon for ‘Egyptian’ but took down ‘Lounge’ and added ‘Restaurant’

Burton: Joe and Sam and Papa, they were deeply involved, and they could get what they wanted.

Paul: You know, from what I knew first hand and what I have heard from other folk, they weren’t exactly deep, deep, deep, but there was definitely some more of that hanky-panky going on.

Burton: Oh, yeah.

Linda: It’s the difference between the Sopranos and The Godfather.

Burton: Yeah. Somewhere right in there.

Linda: Somewhere in there.

1947 note in the DMN

Burton: They used to have a place out on Skillman before Skillman was really ultra-developed out there. I guess, three miles from here. And they had a place they called it Zuroma.

And I took Mr. Miller, my brother’s father-in-law, every Tuesday. The Campisi’s, there were about 20 of them, and they’d be out there, and they’d play poker. I mean, it was big time poker. My brother and I went in the front door one time, and as we got in the front door, some big guy walked over and said, “Who are you?” and we said, “Well, we know the Camp…“ He said, “Just because you know them does not make you good, you get out of here.” We got out of there real quick.

1948 DMN piece

It was way out on Skillman before it was really developed in what was basically an old house about a hundred yards off the road.

NOTE (found out later the Zuroma was first called The Anonymous Club. It was originally on Harry Hines, then moved out to the far boondocks of Dallas at 7510 Skillman. It was a club for a  wide range of all sorts of Italian American families. Later on, the US went after Anonymous members Joe Civello in the 30s, then Frank Ianni and Sam Savalli in the 40s. In the 50s, Senator LBJ was brought in, to stop their deportation, which was 100% successful.)

Linda: Oh. Holy cow.

Anonymous/Zuroma club, “Betrayal in Dallas”

Burton: We used to take his father-in-law, and pick him up every day.

(We break as the food arrives)

Linda: Oh, my gosh. I’ve needed a real pizza for a long time. It’s hard to get a good real pizza. They got the best pizza here.

Burton: You know what? This is the first place I ever had a pizza. I never heard of a pizza until I was in about the tenth grade, I think. Dean Martin, “When the moon hit’s your eye like a bigga pizza pie,” I’d never heard of a pizza. And boy, all of a sudden, pizza became huge. And somebody brought me here, and I had a pizza. There are funny things that you remember in your life. It was so hot, that I took a bite of it, and it burned the top of my mouth. And my mouth was burned for two or three days. Why do you remember these crazy things?

Linda: I don’t know. Isn’t that funny how some things do that?

Burton: Trigger something, yeah.

Paul: Well, David Campisi said that Papa actually brought pizza pie to Dallas.

Burton: Is that right? Well I believe it.

Paul: Yeah.

Burton: When I bought a car, a ’47 Plymouth, and it was $200. And shortly after I bought the thing something would happen to the thing where it would get stuck. You know, it was a shifter, and it would get stuck, and all I would have would be third gear, which is high gear, and reverse. They were on the same part of the transmission. And I’d have to get down there and knock at the transmission with a hammer to change gears

Linda: Oh, no. Back when you could do that and not tear a car up.

Burton: The transmission was nothing but a couple of old gadgets in there.

Linda: Personally, I love driving manual transmissions. Those cars will go forever. I still have an old truck, a 1991 truck, it doesn’t run anymore, but I have 550,000 miles on it, it’s a Chevy.

Burton: Wow.

Linda: That was the first automatic. I’d never driven an automatic truck ever. I’d always driven a stick shift. That was hard to get used to. I can’t believe that truck – right now I’ve got a 2008. It takes me forever to tear up a truck.

Paul: My first vehicle to drive was a 1949 Ford pickup. 

Burton: A Ford pickup? All right.

Paul: It was our rental store truck in Waco. We rented everything, and that truck pulled thousands of tractors over the years. I guess you could say I knew how to drive a tractor before I knew how to drive a car, but I also knew how to drive a 40′ Champ forklift before a car. Anyway that old Straight 6 in that ’49 Ford had been rebuilt half a dozen times and probably had 500,000 miles on it, very slow miles. That old gal probably wouldn’t go up above 50 miles an hour, but Dad had it geared so low it never had a problem pulling all those loaded tractor trailers. It was four speed, on the floor, one, two, three, four You really had to stretch your arm as far as you could to hit all the gears!

Burton: That is crazy! An old workhorse.

Things are different today for sure. About a month ago, Susan and I bought a new washer and dryer. We had not bought a washer and dryer in 20 years; they lasted such a long time.

Anyhow a washer is now computerized. I mean, you can’t just buy a washer that puts water and soap in there and it runs. You close the top on the thing, and it starts making a noise, and some water comes out, and all these lights come on.

Linda: And it weighs the load so you don’t even have to pick what the load size is.

Burton: That’s right. You just throw it in there. I don’t know if I’ll get used to it because I know how much soap to put in the old machine, and it’s different.

Linda: It hardly uses any water, so you feel like your clothes aren’t getting clean.

Burton: That’s right. I mean, we’re always used to having the water above the clothes, but that’s not the way it is.

Linda: Yep, and it still cleans them, and it’s energy efficient.

Burton: And when we first got the thing, the first ten days we knew there was something wrong. This thing doesn’t got enough water in here. Called the people we bought it from, and he said, “Oh no, that’s just the way it is.”

Linda: That’s just the way it is. I had to get used to it too.

(chatting about the virus)

Paul: LA Fitness opened up the other day, so since my 24 hours, right around the corner on Mockingbird is the one I go to but it was closed. So, I had to go up to LA Fitness. It’s just like in here, every other table you can’t use, there every other machine you couldn’t use.

Burton: Oh yeah, right. Do you live in this area?

Paul: I rent a place over on Swiss Avenue.

Burton: You gotta get together with Rose-Mary Rumbley, she lives on the M Streets somewhere.

Paul: That would be great. I’ll get with you later on a number for her. I do need to reach out to her. I’m kind catty-cornered from Virginia Savage McAlester’s house, who just passed away. She wrote all these great books on architecture. Now, I’m not super big into that, but I started looking into these books, I’m going, “Holy cow.” I mean they describe everything. What is a prairie style house? What is a European thatch? You know, different things like that. And she wrote all these architectural books, and she – it’s amazing the stuff that she come up with.

Burton: And she knows all that style.

Paul: She did, may she rest in peace. She was part of groups that started Preservation Dallas, and Swiss Avenue Historic District. Those were both her babies. So, we owe her a debt of gratitude.

Burton: Do you know where Dr. Criswell lived on Swiss?

Paul: I sure do. They just sold that house.

Burton: A great house.

I read that you played some football. Texas A & I Jaguars.

Linda: Oh, my gosh.

Paul: Close enough, we were the Javelinas. And “Played” is probably a relative term, blew out my knee the first week there after working out a year in Waco with future Ponzi schemer Alan Stanford to get ready to play fall of 1974. So “Played”, not so much. I showed enough in rehab that Coach Stienke signed me that Spring. I would venture to say that my career consisted of being a decent blocking dummy. I have my 3rd knee operation coming up on that knee.

We have a fantastic Sports Info Director back then named Fred Neusche who is still with them. He interviewed me when I signed with them in the Spring of 1975. Jon Montoya is the SID for football and Mark Inserra for other sports. Fred runs the external updates, still there, cranking out the hits! 

Burton: That’s fantastic, after all these years, still with them. Texas A&I Javelinas! Hi Fred! 

Paul:  (laughs) We were something like 39-0 in the three years I was there, not counting 5 games played in Europe. Our guys went to Europe and played Henderson State and won 5 more games. Our guys went to Hawaii and opened Aloha Stadium.

Burton: Is that right?

Paul: University of Hawaii was D1, so they thought, well, why not schedule this little Texas team so we can open Aloha Stadium with a win. It will go down in the record books!

We whooped the crap out of them.

Burton: Is that right? You all opened Aloha Stadium?

Paul: First game ever.

Burton: Wow. What year was that?

Paul: 1975. It was a different time. 

Texas A&I (TAMUK now) was kind of a Pro football factory back then. They just listed the NFL 100 best players of all time, we had three of them from Texas A & I. Gene Upshaw for the Raiders, Darrell Green for the Redskins, and John Randall for the Vikings. All three of those guys are in the NFL Hall of Fame.

(we take a break to enjoy our food.)

Burton: Oh, this is good pizza.

Linda: This is really good pizza.

Paul: Mmmm. It’s the best.

Linda: The best. BTW did you hear from Scott?

Paul: Scott is actually working at Staples up there your neck of the woods Burton.

Burton: I’ve been there a lot of times.

Paul: That’s what he said. Could be that he was called into work or something. He’s a workaholic. He’s our official photographer. And I didn’t think we’d be able to get a video in here anyway. But I wanted him to come and get some shots and photos, and stuff like that, but I have my old camera phone over here. Now, we got a famous celebrity here with us.

Linda: That’s why he’s a famous celebrity.

Paul: He’s certainly famous to me!

Burton: You know how long ago it was that Linda and me signed our first contract together?

Paul: How long?

Burton: We’ve never signed a contract together.

Paul: Really? It’s all handshake?

Burton: Yep.

Linda: That’s right, and I was happy for it. I mean, if you can’t trust who you’re working with…

Burton: She ain’t going anywhere, and I ain’t going anywhere.

Linda: I’m not going anywhere!

Paul: You know we have been beating around the bush here, and we have hardly been talking about the star of this show. Lets talk Burton ‘Bubba’ Gilliam. 

When did you start working as a fireman?

The Gilliam Twins (not really, Gene was older), Burton says he was the prettier one…Highland Park Fire Department, Jan 20, 1962

Burton: October 3rd, 1959.

Paul: Oh, wow. How come you know that so specific? Just something that sticks out, or I mean, did something happen that day, or…?

Burton: No, I just remember when I started.

Paul: Well, that’s pretty impressive. No wonder you can remember your lines and I have to look a calendar 5 times a day to remember what day it is.

So, you were working as a fireman when Peter Bogdanovich placed an ad for extras for movie. Tell me more

Burton: It was just an article in the paper about this guy named Peter Bogdanovich. I’d never heard of him. I didn’t know anything about movies other than watching them. It said that he was coming to Dallas to audition people to be extras. And this is 1972. And it said he was gonna audition people to be extras, and Ryan O’Neal was the star of the show, and boy that was good enough for me. I said, “I might get to see Ryan O’Neal.”

So, I came right down the street here (Mockingbird) to the Hilton Inn, which is 300 yards from here, and liked to never find a place to park. But I went in, and boy there’s a gang of people in there, and I went up there to the second or third floor. I don’t know. And the paper the next day said 450 people showed up.

Linda: Oh, my gosh.

Burton: And I really thought about getting the heck out of there, but I don’t know, saw some people and started talking to them, and I had signed up, you know. Well, about two hours later, well, they called my name, and I went in. Do you know Gary Chason?

Linda: Oh, yes. He was a casting director.

Burton: If Gary had looked at me and said, “Nah, I don’t think so,” you know I’d be a retired fireman, living down in east Texas. I’d have two cows. That’s what retired fireman do.

Linda: Oh, my gosh.

Floyd the desk clerk in ‘Paper Moon’.

Burton: But he said, “Yeah, I like your looks. Sit down here and tell me about yourself. How long have you been doing extra work?” I said, “I don’t know anything about extra work. I’ve never done this before.” Then he said – I told him what I did. He said, “You know what? We’re giving away some one-liners in the show,” and he said, “Say this one line for me,” and you’ve heard this before…

Linda: I love it.

Burton: I looked at the line, and Randy Quaid finally said it in the movie. Randy Quaid had one line in Paper Moon, and it was, “Make him say ‘Calf Rope’ Leroy.” And he said, “That sounds pretty good. I’d like to have you come back in a couple weeks to meet Peter, he will be here.”

So, couple weeks later they call, and I go back in. And that’s when Peter was with Cybil Shepherd, you know they did a couple years. And I went in and met him, Peter is laying in a chaise lounge, he’s barefooted, he’s got an ascot around his neck, laying back to the chaise lounge, and Cybil is feeding him little green grapes. Golly.

Linda: Oh, my gosh.

Burton: I walked in and they introduced me, and he said, “Well, what part are you here for?” and I said, “I don’t know.” And Gary said, “He’s here for the part of the brother. And he said, “Okay, say what you gotta say,” and I said, “Make him say ‘calf rope’ Leroy.”

And Peter sat up in that chaise lounge and said that ‘I’ve never had anybody do that to me. What are you doing to me? You think you can do the part of Floyd the desk clerk?’ and I said, “Yes, sir. Sure can.”

I don’t know who Floyd the desk clerk is, but I knew the answer was yes, yes, yes.

He said, “Here take this script, and go in this other room, and look it over. I want you to read for this.” Okay. I don’t know anything about reading or anything.

So, I go in there, and Floyd has four scenes right in the middle of the picture. And about ten minutes later, well, Cybil poked her head in and she said, “Are you about ready to read?” I said, “Yes, ma’am,” and she said, “Well, I’m gonna read the other part. You just read Floyd.” I just said, okay.

Burton with Ryan O’Neal and Madeline Kahn in ‘Paper Moon’

We go in. Peter tells us to – but he says, “Now I want you to walk around the room. I want you to turn the lights on, raise the shades, rearrange the furniture, whatever you wanna do while you’re talking. I just wanna see how you walk and talk, and move.” I said, okay. I said, “But I have to carry the script.” He said, “Well, you gotta know the lines.” I said, “Oh, I already looked at the lines. I know them.” He said, “Can you do them all?” and I said, “Yeah. I think,” and I did.

And at that time, they had – you know, there were about ten people there. The writer, something named Sargent, (Alvin) Sargent. Frank – what’s the name? Big producer. Frank Marshall (NOTE: Raiders of the Lost Ark, Poltergeist, Back to the Future, Roger Rabbit and more). And Frank was just a little guy back then, he a gopher. He was called an associate producer, but he was still a gopher. And other people, about ten of them.

And every time I would say a line, they would clap. And I thought that’s what they do. And then, when I finished, they all stood up and clapped. Of course, that’s what I thought they do when you read. I’ve never had it happen again. I’ve never heard of it happening.

Linda: That’s awesome. What actor would not want that to happen.

Burton: And we sat there, and we laugh and talked, and we laughed about a couple of things, and Peter says, “Well, thank you for coming in,” and I said, “Okay.” So, I left. I went back to the fire station, and they were giving me a bad time, and they said, “Well, did you get that part?” and I said, “Well, I think so.” They said, “Did he tell you got it?” “No, but I think I did.” They said, “Nah, you didn’t get it. He would have told you.”

About a week later, I got a phone call from Paramount casting and they said, “Peter wants you to do this part, and wants you to go to St. Joseph, Missouri in about three or four weeks from then.” And I said, “Well, do I get paid for this?” and they said, “Yes, you do. They’ll want you for a week, and you’re gonna make $282.” I said, “Oh, wow. Oh, man $282.”

So, I had one week of vacation still coming, and I took it. Went there and did that, and while I was doing it, everybody said, “Man you ought to quit the fire department. You’ll get a lot of work.” But I didn’t.

I went back to the fire station, and about three months later I got this phone call. Now when you’re at the fire station, you answer the phone, “Fire Station number 39, Gilliam speaking”. And this guy says, “Hello, my name is Mel Brooks. I’m a writer, director, producer, actor, and I’m getting ready to do a big picture, and I want you to be one of my stars.” I said, “Thank you Mr. Brooks.” Boom, I just hung up the phone because I just knew it was another a fireman giving me a bad time.

Paul: Pranking you?

Burton: Yeah. The whole fire department knew about it.

But Mel called back.

Linda: Oh, my god.

Burton: Now, that’s fate. What if he hadn’t called back? I’d have those two cows and living out in East Texas, wouldn’t I?

Linda: There you go.

Paul: And talking over and over about that one time you did that one movie ‘Paper Moon’…

Burton: Yeah, right. Exactly. That one time.

Paul: And you got to see Ryan O’Neal.

Burton: And I got to see Ryan O’Neal.

Linda: Oh, that is hilarious. I did not know that about the Mel Brooks phone call. That’s hilarious

Burton: You didn’t?

Linda: I did not know you hung up on him. You betcha. Crazy

Burton: Yeah.

Linda: But you know you never went kooky either. You know? Burton’s not flying to LA to audition. He doesn’t want to do that. He says, “I’ll retire before I have to do that.”

Jeanine Turner is still living in New York. She got out of California just in time, but she still lives on her ranch in Denton, Valley View area. And still just as gorgeous as ever. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. And she has her non-profit and she makes a little money doing it.

Burton: I know she works hard at it.

Paul: Wait a minute! Non-profit’s are supposed to get paid?

Linda: (laughs) I think it depends on the non-profit.

Paul: She probably has some residuals from her movies and TV shows

Linda: She does not like to fly, so she’s another one that turns down work more than she takes.

Burton: Does she?

Paul: I ran across a picture of her doing an episode of ‘Dallas’ that I was in. Tammy from the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders was with her, and they’re shot inside daVinci.

Linda: Oh yeah, that’s right. Oh, my gosh.

Paul: And I’m out behind them on the dance floor.

Linda: Oh, my word.

Paul: That was a long time ago. We were all really young and really good looking back then. At least that’s what my ego keeps telling me.

Linda: (laughter) Oh, those were the days. Well, it looks like Texas is poised to get quite a bit of work from LA because LA’s not gonna open up. Because they say they’re opening up June 12th, but the problem is, the unions have got so many heavy restrictions on – and there’s 24 pages of stuff a production has to do before they can open up. They can’t afford to do that. I don’t know how you’re ever gonna shoot a scene. So, Texas is a lot more relaxed.

Burton: I’ve got a friend who is the leading paparazzi in this country, and he’s in New York City, and he hasn’t done anything in the last three months. I mean, there is nothing going on. Nothing with the Broadway, nothing with movies, nothing with TV, and he’s hurting.

Burton: I’m almost 82 years old. This is the biggest thing that I can ever remember. I mean, there’s the death of John Kennedy that was big, but not like this thing is.

Linda: Well, 9/11 was bad. But not like this, and this has shut the whole nation down.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to distract you guys. I’m probably gonna have to leave, so I’m gonna pay the bill.

Burton: Please don’t go!

Linda: No. No, no, no.

Paul: Are you sure? This has been a blast. It’s been soooo long.

Linda: Yes. (sarcastic voice) Don’t you dare defy me. I’m a woman.

Burton: I am woman. Hear me roar.

Paul: She’s ‘Da Boss’, and she leaves no doubt about it.

Linda: You cannot tell me no. I can tell you no. You can’t tell me no!.

Burton: (laughs) I play a lot of golf with Bob Lavelle. You know, who Bob is? (Home Marketing Service) I play a lot with him, and there’s another guy who plays with him and we’ll be talking about him paying so much. He’s the guy that he pays for everything, and this other guy says, ‘well, it’s a write-off for him’. What the heck does that mean? And just because it’s a write-off doesn’t mean he’s not a good guy.

Linda: Yeah, exactly.

Burton: But it’s a write-off for you.

Linda: It’s a write-off, and I’m like, if it’s not really bringing money – sometimes I know that feeling. It’s like, if you didn’t have write-offs, you wouldn’t make any money. You wouldn’t get any tax dollars back. I never get any taxes back.

Burton: When I used to come here with my brother and his wife, and all the other Campisis, and they just say, “Oh, get out of here.”

Linda: They used to say that.

Paul: But not today!

Burton: Not today. And it’s just not that way anymore.

Linda: No. No free lunch at all.

Still on the wall at Campisi’s. Go to the back section, just as you come out of the kitchen

Burton: Before we leave here, I’m gonna go through there and see if my picture is still on the wall.

Paul: Oh, we will find it before we leave!

Linda: Your picture? I’d like to get a photo of that.

Linda: So, I’ve gotta get back and get to work. It’s Monday, so everybody’s like – yeah. Because what’s happening is I had some people, especially in LA, not so much in Texas because we didn’t have any tv shows, we just had commercials. Like, there’s the Walker show coming in Austin with Jared Padalecki, and it’s a kind of a remake of ‘Walker Texas Ranger’, but it’s not a prequel or a sequel, it’s a whole different storyline about Cordell Walker. Jared Padalecki plays him. He’s from San Antonio, and Walker comes back from Iraq, and his brother has been taking care of his two kids, and he’s divorced, and his parents own a ranch in central Texas. Everybody thinks it’s a travesty that it’s not shooting in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

So it’s more like central Texas, and yeah, it’s more Texas. So, it was supposed to have started the end of April, and that’s probably not gonna start until July at least. So, we’ve got five tv shows coming in Texas. But they don’t know when they’re gonna start. So, we’ve just got little small commercials shooting here and there. But the problem is, I had a bunch of people booked in LA. I had about five or six people booked on movies, and now they’re moving to other states because they can’t shoot in LA, so I’m having to close those deals. They had to unbook them, and now they’re rebooking them. And of course, now everybody’s calling me at the same time, I get to take care of that this afternoon.

Paul: I spoke to Kim Harmon Gatlin the other day. They were supposed to get a reboot of ‘Good Christians Belles’ going. CW was gonna pick it up, and they put it off until next season. Not sure what is going to happen now.

Linda: Oh, really? Oh, my, and I loved that show.

Burton: That was a great one.

Linda: Of course the name of the book was something very different. You know what? I never said a cuss word until I became an agent. And I’m like, it just kinda rolls off my tongue now. That’s not a good thing.

Burton with Richard Chamberlin in ‘Dream West’

Burton: You know what? I never heard my father say hell, and later in life I heard him say damn a couple of times.

Linda: Oh my gosh. It just rolls off people’s tongues a little too easy now. I’m like, I gotta watch my mouth.

Burton: I talked to Rudy yesterday. Rudy Gatlin, Kim’s ex.

Paul: She’s a hoot. Her family owns Coal Vines up in Addison. It’s a really nice one up there. If you all wanna go up there and grab lunch one day, holler at me, and we’ll run up there.

Burton: Wow.

Paul: Yeah. I’m pretty good at a Burger King myself, but – Whataburger, that’s the cat’s meow.

Burton: I am too. Hey, how good is Whataburger? You wanna go to Whataburger, you come see me. I got more Whataburger coupons than you can shake a stick at.

Paul: You do commercials for them?

Burton: No.

Linda: You’ll have to. (Agent speak…)

Burton does love his food. Chowing down on some pie at Norma’s

Burton: But the president of the company is great friend of mine. But he’s only been the president about four months. As soon as he took it over, bad things started happening with the virus. But I talked to him a couple days ago, and he said the numbers are still good.

Paul: If the numbers are good, put me in one of your commercial. I can play the chubby old buddy that gets run over in the drive-through pretty good. My best role was playing the klutz in the 7-11 commercials back in the 70’s. I knocked over everything! 

Burton: Yes! (laughs)

Linda: (phone rings) There you go.

Paul: The sound of money! I think you need to get on the phone.

Linda: Oh, believe me… I’m always, I’m always on the phone.

Paul: So for the 73rd time, lets get back to Burton Gilliam!

(everybody chuckles)

So, I gotta ask you a question I’m sure nobody has ever asked before…(seductive pause) The ‘breaking wind’ scene in Blazing Saddles. I wanted to be the first to talk to you it. I bet nobody has ever asked about that before!.. Flatulence on screen!

Burton: Now, this is a first. Oh boy, you go deep into these things. You are an original. Oh, this is good.

What would you like to know?

Paul: Well, I’ve worked on a few sets in my lifetime, and I gotta ask you, little things like, you much of that was pantomime?

Burton: The deal was there’s about 12 of us in the thing, and you’ve gotta do the master shot. And that’s when, after the first couple of takes, we were doing our dead level best to make it happen. But we’d do it pretty good, but after a couple of times, you’re shot. It’s just not happening. And after that, bring on the sound effects. But I think the sound effects were much better than the real thing anyway.

Paul: Well, I’ve gotta title for this I’m thinking about, and the title of this piece is gonna be ‘You Can’t Keep a Good Fart Down’. Or maybe from what you just told me, ‘The Dirty Dozen: Fart 2’

Burton: (laughs) And a few years ago, you couldn’t do that.

The scene that made Burton a bathro… worldwide celebrity!

Paul: I heard also that you had the first person in cinematic history to break wind on screen.

Burton: I’m it. I’m the one! When we went in that day, Mel came over to me and said, “Well, I’m gonna make you famous today.”

And I said, “How’s that,” and he said, “Well, you know what we’re doing?” I said, “Yeah?” He said, “No one’s ever done it on film.” And I said, “What?” He said, “No. You are the first.” And over the years, I’ve asked him, just in a left-handed comment, I’d say, “You know, you should put me in the Guinness Book of Records.” He has never taken that to heart.

Paul: Well, that wasn’t exactly something you would hear in the Cleaver household.

Burton: Exactly.

Paul: “Beaver, son, did you have to do that?”

Burton: And he and I have never talked about that. I’ve known him, golly, 30 years, 35. We’ve never talked about that.

Paul: Well, we are so glad that we are finally giving you a little release, taking the pressure off, vent a little… I’ll send a copy of this to Mr. Brooks.

Gene Wilder, Madeline Kahn and Burton Gilliam on the set of ‘Blazing Saddles’

So – you are ready to move to Hollywood. Tell me about it.

Burton: Oh yeah . I moved into this massive complex, it’s 1750 units in one, 3200 people.

Paul: Wow.

Burton: I was newly divorced, and boy that was the greatest place. Cleavon Little helped me get settled in there. It’s where he lived, and boy it was the greatest place for me to live because I was a new guy, in a new business, meeting new people, going new places every day. And I didn’t no to anybody. You know, you don’t call up Mel and say, “Hey, Mel. Let’s go and have lunch.” It was just about a two year time in there that was just the greatest of my life.

Linda: Well, it’s so close to everything.

Burton: Oh yeah. Right.

Linda: It’s close to everything.

Burton: Right in the middle of everything. Yeah.

Linda: Within walking distance.

Burton: Yeah. Yeah.

Linda: Well, back then it was.

Burton: Right across the back lot from Universal. Right next door to Warner Bros.. You could get on the Hollywood freeway, and in two minutes be in downtown Los Angeles in five. It was the perfect spot.

Linda: Those were the days.

Burton: Those were the days, my friend.

Paul: So, you’ve also had some pretty juicy roles. Honeymoon in Vegas, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, Fletch, just so many!

Burton and Chevy ad-libbing the jet mechanic scene in ‘Fletch’

Burton: Oh yeah, Fletch is one of the great pictures. And it’s Chevy Chase’s favorite picture that he ever did because he played five or six different characters in the thing. And he and I, the day before we were to do our big scene, he called me in the morning about 8:00. He said, “What are doing today for lunch,” and I said, “Nothing.” And he said, “Would you come over here,” and they were shooting in a park in Beverly Hills. He said, “I hate this scene. I just hate it. Nothing about it I like, but we have to have it to tie things together.”

He said, “Let’s come over here and work on it.” So, I went over, and I got there early, and watched him shoot for a while, and then we went back to his trailer, and he said, “Tell you what, let’s start here, and end here, and everything in the middle, let’s just do it off the wall, and –“

Paul: Ad lib it?

Burton: Yeah.

Paul: Oh wow.

Burton: “And have a good time with it.” And so, we did, and boy we made it work. But there was another guy in the scene with us, who was an airplane mechanic with me, we didn’t tell him anything at all about it. Because he was just with me, and had a couple of little words to say, nothing much. But when it would cut to him, to a close up, it was like, what the hell are these people doing? We didn’t tell him, and as you know, when you finish work on something at the end of the day, you always go by and say, “Hey, I enjoyed working with you. Had a good time,” and yah, yah, yah. I mean, that guy hit the front door, and he was gone. He was upset. He didn’t like it.

Linda: No sense of humor. No fun.

Part Deux

Sorry but I have to go. So good to see you.

Burton: You too. Golly. Go on get out of here. You got a long drive. I love you.

Linda: Thank you for inviting me guys. So good to see you all. Have a good time.

Burton: Okay. Bye now.

Paul: Thank you so much for lunch.

Linda: You’re welcome.

(Linda exits stage left)

Paul: She’s the best. I love her to death.

Burton: Me too. She has not changed all these years.

Paul: That’s amazing isn’t it? It’s amazing.

Burton: Yeah, yeah. She’s great. She’s the best.

Burton with Kate Murtagh and pre-Sly Sylvester Stallone getting Robert Mitchum hooked. The movie ‘Farewell My Love’

Paul: Good gal. So, tell me about the story about the ‘Security Guard’ on ‘Thunderbolt and Lightfoot’. Another issue with you pulling something out of your pants.

Burton: Oh. That was another ad lib thing. We just had to take up some time there, and he said, “Pick up anything. Just tell me something about this old guy.” Let’s see, the guys – we were with the same agency at the time.

Paul: That was the fella from ‘The Fat Man’ right?

Burton: Yeah, right. Right. Cliff Emmich. Cliff Emmich. Yeah, we were with the same agent. Great guy.

Anyway I walked up to him, and then I took my pecker out, and I looked at it. He mouth drops, he looked at it, and he didn’t know what to do. He didn’t know what to do, to grab it, scream or run off. It was just something stupid.

Every time I see that picture though, I’m amazed at how young I look in the thing. I’d been in the business about, golly, four months, something like that. Well, I’d done Blazing Saddles, and I finished that about the first of June, came back to Dallas for two weeks, then went back and stayed. And about the first of October, I did that picture. Went up to Great Falls, Montana.

Paul: Middle of nowhere

Now tell me about dating Wonder Woman!

Lynda Carter, Burton’s last wonder woman before he took the final plunge

Burton: My gosh, Lynda Carter. Man, in this apartment complex that I’m lived in, it was probably about 60% women over men there, and it was like – you know, this was back before we had to worry about anything hardly, you know. And it was every day, you’d meet somebody new. That’s just what we did. The sexual revolution or whatever it was.

The first night, when I met her that day, we spent the night in the same house with some people down in Orange County. Big, big, monstrous house. And the next day, we got up, and we had breakfast with those people, and we put our stuff in our car, and I was gonna take her back home, and she said, “Have you ever been down to Laguna Beach?” I said, “No, I haven’t, but I heard…” and she said, “Oh, well you would love the Laguna –“some hotel down there. She said, “Why don’t we go down there and spend the day, and spend the night there.” I said, “Uh, yeah.” Because I could tell, you know, you can tell when you got a little something going. When she said that, I knew we had a lot of going. Oh, me.

Paul: I may be a country boy, but I’m not a country boy.

Burton: That’s right. Exactly.

Paul: Oh, my gosh. All the boys of my age were all in love with her.

Burton: This was about a year and a half before she became Wonder Woman.

Paul: Oh, Wonder Woman.

Burton: But at the same time, she was still a wonder.

Paul: She seemed to have a very natural beauty

Burton: Yeah. Yeah. Just, such a good gal. I was gonna say I loved her, but I didn’t.

Paul: You liked her a whole lot… I’m still getting over the fact you dated Wonder Woman

Burton: (laughs) That’s right.

Paul: Ok, tell me about the Burton Gilliam show. Was it KERA?

Burton: One man show. It’s the same thing that Mel has been doing for about four years now, but I’ve done it for the last ten years. Of course, he makes a little bit more money than I do.

Paul: A little bit. Just a pinch.

Burton: He makes a $100,000 a show. He’ll do it about three or four times a year all across the country. I’m not quite in that…

Paul: Still working on four figures, right?

Burton: Yeah, right. Exactly. It’s been wonderful because until this thing came along, I would go somewhere a couple of times a month. And I was supposed to go to Houma, Louisiana in the middle of July, the 17th and 18th, I think it was. But I’m expecting them to call and cancel that. They’ve already canceled. They canceled in May, but I just don’t think that they’re ready to get back in a month from now.

Paul: So, how long has this show been running?

Burton: I’ve been doing it for nine years.

Paul: Yeah, at least that.

Burton: I’ve only done it once in Dallas about ten months ago, I guess something like that, at the Statler Hotel downtown. They have a big showroom there, and they were doing, once a month, someone, somebody with a show. And they called me and asked me to do the thing. And they had a lot of money. If they had said, will give you this for it, which would have been have of what they gave me, I would have said, sure, that’s okay.

Paul: Take what you can get.

 

Burton: Do you know Tommy Habeeb? Tommy Habeeb started that with that gold, blue and goldsmith, whatever. He started Cheaters, about 20 years ago, and he made a fortune off it, and sold it to Bobby Goldsmith, or whoever it was. But anyway, Tommy is now one of the owners of the Statler, and I’ve known him forever. He called me and asked me to do the thing. He said, “I’ll give you X$” I said, “Okay, if that’s all you got, I’ll do it.”

It’s like, I do commercials for Bonham Chrysler, and I’ve done them, we’re starting our 13th year. And the owner called me up, I didn’t know. He’s since died a number of years ago. About a year or two before that, I’d been doing, for a number of years, Rodeo Ford. And he said, “Listen, I want you to start doing commercials for me,” and I said, okay. He says, “Time for you to get back into the car commercial business. How much will you charge me?” And I threw him a number that I knew he was gonna say, nahhhh, I’ll give you a third or half of that. And he said, “Okay, that’s fine.”

And I was talking to him, we were in Hawaii, and he was here, of course, and he said, “Well, when you get back from Hawaii, come pick up a car.” I said, “Oh, okay.” So, I’m still driving their cars. For 12 years, I’ve been driving their cars. I get a new one every 3500 miles.

Paul: Wow.

Burton: The best thing I’ve ever run across in my life. On top of the money that they forked over.

Paul: Oh, man. So, one thing you had mentioned in your email was something about being the voice of Big Tex.

‘Gollie’ in ‘The Getaway’ with Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger

Burton: You know, Jim Lowe, or whoever it was, that used to be the – he died or whatever it was, five or six years ago. And I have more of a background with Fair Park than anybody I know of. I’m the only person I know of that ever lived inside the fairgrounds.

Paul: Where did you live?

Burton: You know where Pennsylvania Street on the back, where the parking lot is, back there. I was two and three years old. Lived there about a year and a half. My father – this was during the war; my father was a night watchman there. And they furnished him with a house. And this was when the fair wasn’t going, of course, he was there too then.

But they had this house, it was surrounded by an eight-foot fence, a big high fence. We couldn’t get out. When my father was home, he could let us out the gate, but the rest of the time we were locked in there. If my mother needed anything from the grocery store, she called down to the little mom and pop grocery store, they came down, threw it over the fence, and she gave the two bucks through the fence or something.

But anyway, when I found out they were looking for somebody new, I know people with the fair, and I called them, and I told them, “You know, I have so many things. Golly. There’s nobody that’s had more to do with the fairgrounds than I have. I’ve can list, list, list. I mean, a lot of things, and I grew up there.”

And boy, they were really interested, but it came right down to the end, and they sent me the nicest letter. “We’re sorry,” and I know it wasn’t a form letter, it was a letter to me. And they said, “We have decided that we have to go with a voice that no one knows, and everybody around here knows your voice.” So, that was the end of that. Well, they are now looking for somebody else right now, you know.

Paul: There you go.

Burton: I called Mitch Glieber, the guy that’s the president, Frank Glieber’s son.

Paul: Right. I know. The guy that fired Bill Bragg.

Burton: Exactly. I called him, and I said, “Listen, I want to make one shot at this.”

And I told him, “I wanna make one more run at this thing. I wanna be the guy.” And he took the information in, but I just didn’t feel like it was gonna – and he might have passed it on. But I just didn’t feel like it was gonna happen. And I need to do that. I know more about the fairgrounds. I’ve spent more times there, with all activities, and the state fair, and basketball, and going to different things. And I don’t care about the money. I don’t know if I’d make any money. I don’t know. But it’s something that I would just love to do.

Paul: Do it as a guest. Come on as a guest for a day or something.

Burton: Yes. Even that.

Burton in ‘Charlie’s Angels”

Paul: Well, Bill told me how it works, and basically, he was in almost little mobile home, with basically a table and microphone, and he had stuff that he would say. And it used to be, if you remember back, say maybe, 1995 or somewhere in there, it used to be able to say stuff like, “Well, hello little fellow there. You in the cowboy hat and the yellow shirt. How are you doing today?” and he’d wave his hand like that because could control that.

Burton: Yeah. He could control that.

Paul: Then they made him stop doing that.

Burton: Really?

Paul: And see they stopped a lot of that stuff, and they gave him, basically, a sheet of things he could say.

Burton: It was not personalized then.

Paul: Yeah, they cut all that out. But his last day there was the day that Big Tex burned to the ground.

Burton: Is that right.

Paul: He was there for, I think about 12 years.

Burton: I think it’s more like 12 or 14 years. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, something like that. Anyways, that was the last day I. I know, of course, he loved it. He’s like you, he loved doing it. Remember he’d go out in the grounds and have his Big Tex outfit on, and walk around and the little kids and big kids would take photos.

Burton: Golly. See, that’s what I’d love to do when I’m not working. Walk around and have the same outfit he had on.

Paul: Get pictures with people.

Burton: And do that. You know, we all know what we’re good at, and we know what we’re not good at. I know that I’m good at that.

Paul: Yeah, you like people.

Burton in ‘Dukes of Hazard’

Burton: I know I’m good at it. So, if you happen to see Mitch, tell him I want the job!

Paul: I see you helped save the Lakewood Theater.

Burton: Oh, yes I did.

Paul: Tell me about that.

Burton: You remember all that stuff that was going on?

Paul: Yeah, yeah,

Burton: And some people called me, and I’ve forgotten really who it was, but some of the people I knew over in Lakewood are at the Lakewood Country Club. And I was part of their group for a year or so, I guess. Finally, it came down to the fact that they were gonna make a big appearance in front of the Dallas City Council. And so, they asked me to come down with them. And there were eight of us, the wanted us to speak, and they knew that I should be the heavy hitter because I was, you know –

Paul: The name. Yeah, it’s a big part.

Burton: Yeah, the name. And so, when it came my time. I remember what I said. It came my time, and I walked up there, and it had been so cut and dried, dry humor, and I said, “Come on boys, I don’t hear no singing.” And everybody laughed. All the people on the city council, all the people on the whatever board it was that was really over that, and we all laughed, and they knew it from Blazing Saddles of course. And about a week later they found out it had finally passed, and I got letters from all the people that were pushing for me to come down there. And it was all fun, we had a good time.

Paul: A lot of people went to the theater.

Burton: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I remember when it was built in about 19 – right after the war. Right after the war was when a lot of theaters were built, like the Lakewood, Wilshire, which is no longer there.

Paul: Right around the corner.

Burton: Yeah. Yeah. Right after the war is when a lot of theaters were built. Golly.

Paul: So earlier we were talking about you dating Lynda Carter. Wasn’t that about the time you met the love of your life? 

Burton: Yes, it was. I met my wife, and she had just moved into the apartment complex, Oakwood Gardens. 

I remember I saw Lynda, after I’d taken Susan out a couple of times, and I said, “Lynda, I think I might have found the one right here.”

And she was so nice, she said, “We’ve had the best time. It’s been so good. You go on and live and have a good life.” I’ve forgotten what she said. And I’ve talked to her a number of times since then.

Burton, the gal that stole Wonder Woman’s lasso and reeled Burton in – the love of his life Susan, and some unidentified dude in a wide tied, big lapeled pin striped suit with vest

Paul: So, you met Susan out in California?

Burton: She’s a Los Angeles girl. Yeah.

Paul: Oh, my gosh.

Burton: Yeah. I graduated from Woodrow Wilson in Dallas. She graduated from Woodrow Wilson in Los Angeles.

Paul: Oh, man. Do you all go to the reunions together?

Burton: Well, we do here. She’s been made an honorary member of the 1956 class. She was in the ’66 class out there. I’m ten years older than she is.

Paul: Well, how long has she been putting up with you now?

Burton: I met her in ’73, we’ve been married since December of ’75. So, this December will be 45 years.

Paul: And kids?

Burton: No kids together. But from my first marriage, I have two kids. We’ve got six grandchildren, and six great grandchildren. And she takes credit for the grandkids and great grandkids.

Paul: So, tell me about Holly.

Burton: Holly? My granddaughter Holly?

Paul: Yes.

Burton: Golly. Did I tell you all this stuff, or did you know it?

Paul: No, I do my homework!

Burton: My daughter was a gymnast, a pretty fair gymnast, she won a few tournaments here and there. But Holly, her daughter, started in gymnastic when she was about two and a half years old, and of course she became a three time world champion. And after she was the world champion, and finished all of her international careers, she wanted to go back to college, and she could go anywhere she wanted to go.

She went to the University of Oklahoma, and got she got a five year scholarship out of it, and got her master’s there. She was an All American eight times. Anytime you win a something, you are an All American. Even if you win, two at a time, you’re twice All American.

Burton’s granddaughter Holly Vise

And she was the Big 12 Woman Athlete of the Year, twice. And she met the guy she’s married to in gymnastics. They have two children. And the last Olympics in Rio, he won bronze in the pommel horse.

They’re both teachers, and that’s what they do now. They’re both 30 years old, and they have two gymnastics places in Phoenix, one in Phoenix and one about 25 miles away in the little town that they live, whatever name that is. And that’s up until all this stuff came out, that’s what they do. They teach and they travel the world teaching elite gymnasts. They’re future is – you know, they’re set. They’re just set. So, we’re real proud of them. They’ve done well.

Paul: That’s pretty amazing.

Burton: It is. I used to be the athlete in the family. Not anymore.

Paul: Not anymore.

Holly with her husband Alex Naddour and future SAG actress Lilah

Burton: Not anymore. And when she was ten years old, she was a little prodigy. The Russian Federation, whatever gymnastically it was, they invited her to come to Russia and tour. They went to four different cities in two weeks, and my ex-wife and my wife, they went with Holly, and Holly’s mother LeAnne. My wife and my ex-wife, they’re good friends.

Paul: Let’s jump back just a bit to your first marriage

Burton: 1959. That was just before I became a fireman.

Paul: All right.

Burton: Yeah. June 19th, 1959. We were married nine and a half years.

Then three years later I got married again, and that lasted until I was gonna go to Hollywood and be an actor. And I was married to a little girl from Scotland, and her mother and father didn’t like that I was gonna quit the fire department and be an actor. And we went to see them twice in Scotland in Dunfermline, and they had the big long talk with me about she done married a fireman, you should go back to the department, but I said, “No, I think I can do this. Everybody says I can do it.” Well, she said, “No, I’m not going out there,” so that was the end of that. We were only married two and half, three years, something like that.

Paul: So, you know I told you I worked on the ships for a few years, we had a bunch of Scots on board, and I could barely understand about half the words they said.

Burton: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Let me tell you. And it’s funny you say this because the Scottish brogue is so pretty until you have to listen to it every day, all day long.

Paul: Well, they were from Glasgow too, and it’s really thick there. I’m sitting there going, “What the hell did you just say?”

Burton: What are they saying? What are they saying? Yeah. Yeah. That was just a real mistake. Not on her part, but on mine. I was just ready to get married again.

Paul: It made you what you are though. You know, all these things, they all, you know little bits and pieces.

Burton: It’s all part of who I am. Everybody I’ve met – if I’ve remembered them, it’s some little itty-bitty part of me. Some of them a big part of it.

Paul: Some talent, your acting you pulled from, and you know you got a little bit from here, and you may not even remember that person, but you take those bits and pieces.

Burton: And I’ve all of my life, studied people. I really have. I’ve picked up people.

Burton and Nick Cage as The Flying Elvis’s in “Honeymoon in Vegas”. I asked him if he ever got to jump out of the plane, he said ‘many times! About 5 feet onto a mattress…’

Paul: I think you would have been good in sales. You would have been really good in sales.

Burton: Oh, my gosh. I know I would. You know I do all these car commercials. I guarantee you, you put me out on the lot, and say, “Hey, go sell that person a car, right over there.” I’d have a good hit percentage. I guarantee. I know that I could be a salesman. I know that.

Paul: Oh, my god. My first job in Dallas I’m up here selling cars at Kenray Ford because I didn’t own a car, so that salesman’s demo meant everything. Just my Kawasaki 750 and me.

Burton: Is that right? Wow, the things we have to do

Burton: I’ve enjoyed it too. I like meeting new people because I’m gonna learn something from them. I know I am, that’s just the way it is. I learned some things I don’t even want to know. I’ve met a lot of people I don’t care to associate with.

Paul: Well I hope I’m not one of the latter.

Burton: Not a chance. 

Paul:  Last question. Many folks, as did I, had this misconception that you are a country kid. 

Burton: That is true, I hear it all the time, but no. I’m a city kid, born and bred. Country was just a role I played.

Paul: Thanks so much for your time today. This was fun!

Burton: For me too. Call me with whatever else you need. Call me anytime!

Burton selling Michael J Fox his Colt 45 in ‘Back to the Future’

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The post BURTON GILLIAM – “IT’S BUBBA!” first appeared on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

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]]> https://meminc.org/burtongilliam/feed/ 7 2603 BARRY CORBIN… EXPOSED! https://meminc.org/barrycorbin/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=barrycorbin https://meminc.org/barrycorbin/#comments Thu, 03 Sep 2020 22:33:18 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=2491

We did 'War Games'. My part was General Beringer. Apparently the Director, John Badham, thought I reminded him of his dad, who was an Air Force General and I ad-libbed the line “God damn it! I’d piss on a sparkplug if I thought it’d do any good! Let the boy in there, Major.” We had’em rolling in the aisles.
As the 'Dallas' reboot was shooting, Patrick called. They brought me in to read JR's will, and I said to Patrick, ‘Well, I’m sorry to hear about Larry (Hagman passing away).'
Patrick said, ‘Yeah, the SOB had nerve, didn’t he? He died in the middle of the season!

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Barry Corbin in his military days. Photo courtesy BarryCorbin.net and Barry Corbin

Barry Corbin… EXPOSED!

by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Incorporated

A tip of the hat to Linda McAlister, who made our reunion possible.

And another tip to Shannon and Jordan Ross, who put me in touch with Mr. Corbin over 20 years ago.

Parts of this interview were from Mr. Corbin’s front porch with his horses, dogs, kids and grand-kids all around. The other part was from a followup phone interview last week. And after I listened to the interview playback, the longer I talked with Barry, the more ‘ya’lls’ came out – from me!

Paul Heckmann: Hello Mr. Corbin.

Barry Corbin relaxing at his ranch on the Arlington/Fort Worth border. This is from my interview with him back 2003 for FlixUSA.com, photo courtesy Yours Truly

Barry Corbin: Good morning Paul. Please call me Barry.

Paul: Thank you!

It’s been a while since we last spoke. So you still raising horses at your place?

Barry: No, I don’t have any horses anymore. I’ve been back and forth traveling and I don’t have time for it. I try to get on one once in a while just to make sure I can still do it, but that’s about it. I know there’s a lot of guys my age getting on horseback every day, but I didn’t do it for a couple of years, and it’s getting harder and harder.

Paul: I’m there with you Barry. Was much easier when we were young and more limber, when the knees and hips would swing a little better.

Barry: You get a good horse, and a horse will put up with a kid. They won’t put up with much from a grown person.

Paul: You will learn more about a horse in a short time than you would ever want to know the first time you walk around the back of a horse at arm’s length. You’d better walk real close or real far away, one of the two.

Barry: Yeah, walk real close, put your hand on his rump. Let him know you’re there.

Paul: Exactly.

Something you don’t see a lot of, Barry dressed to the 9’s. He’s like me, likes to be comfortable. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

I guess I should first thank my friend Linda McAlister for her assistance in hooking us up. We go back to the days of Texas Film and Video News.

Barry: She’s a good gal.

Paul: She is the best!

Barry, can you tell me a bit about your family and how they got to Texas?

Barry: Well, my family originated in Virginia. We were always a bunch of farmers. They moved to Texas after the Civil War.

I was born in Lamesa, Texas that isn’t to far from Lubbock.

Paul: Did you grow up in Lamesa?

Barry: I went to first grade there and that was about it. We moved to Austin first and then we moved to Lubbock.

Paul: How long were y’all in Austin?

Barry: Well, my dad had two terms as State Senator from Lubbock. So we were back and forth between Lubbock and Austin.

Paul: So, what was it like growing up to be son of a State Senator? Did you catch any flak from the other kids?

Barry: Well, no, he was the youngest senator at the time. In the senate, he was, I think he was 25 when he was elected. He’d been elected County Judge when he was, I believe, 21. Back in those days, the war was going on, so the old judge that had been the judge for years, he was getting kind of a little bit senile, and wasn’t going to be good. He didn’t even run a campaign. He just put his name on the ballot. My granddad said well, if you win that, I’m going to run for president next time. Well, he won it because he was the only one running.

All the other young men were off to the war. My dad had a crippled hand, so he was not suitable for the service. He tried to join, but he couldn’t because he had polio. So, he got to be judge, and then he got to be a senator, and he won every political race he went and ran until the second time. The third time for senator, he was beat, and he decided politics was not his deal anymore.

Paul: So, that’s when he started practicing law?

Barry: Yeah. He’d already got his law license. He’s passed the bar years before. He passed the bar when he was 20 or 21. So, he was a lawyer the rest of his life, but he didn’t take any cases. The only cases he’d take were ones that interested him, and the ones that interested him didn’t have any money. So, we’d get paid in goats or chickens.

You owed income tax, but you had about $100.00 worth of cash all year.

Paul: So, about how old were you when you moved back to Lubbock permanently?

Barry: I was in the eighth grade when I came back permanently.

Paul: Where’d you go to high school at?

Barry: Monterey High School. I was pretty blessed that it was brand new when I went in. So, I went from the 10th grade all the way up through the

12th grade. I was the first one to go all the way through in the new school. So, it’s a very old school now, but it was a brand new school then.

Paul: How did you get your start in the entertainment?

Barry: Well, you know that’s a good story. The first thing I ever did was playing a piano in church when I was a kid. Then we started doing plays with the kids in our neighborhood. That was back in the day of character actors like Gabby Hayes and Walter Brennan. I wanted to be just like them.

Lubbock Monterrey HS, circa 1956. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Paul: How about your days in high school?

Barry: Well, the only things I paid attention to were literature and history. Other than that, I hated school. We used to go over to Texas Tech and watch the theater rehearsals all the time. It was a lot more fun than school.

After high school, I went to Texas Tech. Of course theater was what I enjoyed and pretty much all I did. When I was 19 I got the job playing Falstaff and did a pretty good job!

Paul: So, then you decided to go to Texas Tech. So, there’s internet rumor about you sleeping in a dumpster at Tech. Tell me about that.

Barry: Well, I did. I worked at this theater on the day. And they were building the library. And they had a bunch of, at the time, the horticulture department had a greenhouse over there, so they would dump their plants in this one particular dumpster. So, it had nice flowers and it was nice and soft, so I’d crawl up in there and take a nap. And nobody knew about it until the truck came to collect the thing and they started lifting that dumpster up, and I threw the lid open and hollered, and they let me out. So, I got in the school newspaper that I lived in the dumpster.

Paul: I could just see a head popping up and that guy freaking out.

Barry: I’m glad that there were guys there, because if it had been later on, the way they do now, they’ve got one guy; he doesn’t even see what goes into the truck.

Paul: We wouldn’t be talking today, would we?

Barry: No, I’d have been chopped into little bits.

Paul: What happened after you left Texas Tech?

Barry: My brother and I went into the Marine Corp together. Wasn’t exactly the smartest thing I’ve done, but we got through it. I spent most of my time sunny California at Camp Pendleton. After I was discharged, I came back to Texas and worked in theaters around the area

Well, I decided I that had to leave Texas to pursue my acting career. Anyway, I headed up north to New York via Chicago, North Carolina, Madison, Wisconsin and other places.

I finally got to NY and found out that an off-Broadway play didn’t pay squat. I was driving an old Ford Wagon and sleeping in it half the time. Anyway, I did get to do a lot of work – strangely enough a lot of it was Shakespeare. I moved down to Alabama for a while around ’72, then moved back up to the Big Apple.

During the summer of ’79, I got a shot at auditioning for the role of Uncle Bob in “Urban Cowboy” It went pretty well and I got the role. That was the one that pretty much set my film-acting career in motion. There were a couple of pretty good roles that came up right after that in “Any Which Way You Can” and “Stir Crazy.”

Paul: So lets talk about playing Uncle Bob in ‘Urban Cowboy’.

The movie opens, I remember it was John Travolta who was sitting there in his pickup truck, and I remember turning around to my date and saying, I can guarantee he’s got a Coke bottle with some ‘chaw juice’ in there right beside him. And what does he do but pick up a Coke bottle right there about that time?

It was just a perfect movie for someone that grew up in Texas. You knew it. I knew it. Everything was perfect.

Barry: Yes, I thought so too.

Courtesy Barry Corbin, Paramount Pictures and MovieClips

Paul: Do you remember who Dwight Adair is?

Barry: You bet! I loved working with him.

Paul: Well, Dwight’s an old buddy of mine for more years than you can imagine, and of course, he was dialogue coach on ‘Urban Cowboy’.

So, I reached out to Dwight, told him you and I were gonna have a pow-wow and I said, ‘Anything I should ask Barry?’ And he says, yeah, ‘Ask Barry if he remembers what the inside of Gilley’s smelled like.’

Dwight Adair, Leonard Katzman (the big man on set, in his well known tube socks, longtime Director) and Larry Hagman. Photo courtesy a friend of Memories Inc, Dwight Adair

Barry: (laughs) Yeah, sure I can. It smelled like stale beer and cigarettes. And if you got off in a corner somewhere, it smelled like urine.

Paul: Ha! Exactly what he said!

Barry: How’s Dwight doing? Is he okay?

Paul: He’s doing pretty good. I’m gonna do another interview with him here pretty soon. We haven’t caught up in a long time.

Barry Corbin and Dwight Adair, courtesy BarryCorbin.net

He had that Granite House down in Austin for many years, but when I looked it up, I didn’t see it anymore, so I haven’t really touched base. I’ll be happy to put y’all two together. I’ll send you his information.

Barry: I haven’t talked to him in a while, so yeah, I’d like to talk to him. Is he still wearing his hair down to his ass?

Paul: Pretty sure it has grown down around his knees by now. But you know how it is as Old Man Time catches up with us. He’ll trip over that hair one day and it will be the death of him!

Barry: They always want me to send him a video when they want to hire me to do something, they want me to send him a video to make sure I’ve got all my arms and legs and that I’m still all together. They all think I’m old, and I don’t subscribe to that.

Paul: You’re only old if you think you’re old.

Barry: I used to think 80 was old, but it’s not.

Paul: My mom Joyce is about to turn 102 in December, and she’ll still whip your butt in any kind of card game you play, and in Boggle, where you roll the dice and spell out the words, and get points from whomever can make the most words. Just amazing. She lives by herself, runs the house, cleans the house, cooks; she won’t let anybody cook over there but her.

Barry: Does she drive a car?

Paul: She does, although I value my life too dang much to ride with her!

Barry: Ha! (laughs)Well, that’s doing it good. I had a great-aunt who was 103, and the only problem she had was she couldn’t see well. She lived out in the country by herself, and she was going across the road when she was 103 to get her mail out of the mailbox and got hit by a car.

Paul: Oh, my gosh.

Barry: And she’d probably have still been alive if she hadn’t been hit by that car.

Paul: Before we get too far off base, let’s go back to Urban Cowboy for a minute. Now John Travolta was just coming off ‘Welcome Back Kotter’, ‘Grease’ and ‘Saturday Night Fever’. All of them had Jersey/New York accent. Did you ever have to remind John to lose a northeastern twang?

Barry: No, he did pretty good, Dwight worked with him a lot. I thought Debra Winger did a pretty good job too. She’s from up in Ohio.

Now let me tell you a story about that movie. One girl in the show was Jessie; she was playing the part of Debra’s best friend. She was one of the regulars there at Gilley’s. She wanted to be a little dramatic. They were doing a scene late at night. They had a break, and she said to John, ‘You know, you shouldn’t be playing this part, Bruce Boxleitner ought to be playing this part.’

John was just devastated by that. I said, ‘Don’t pay any attention to what she says. She’s just bitching and moaning.’ She’d just had a baby, and she’d put the baby up under the steel guitar player’s guitar and leave him there sucking on a pacifier in all that smoke and stuff.

Paul: Oh, man, that sounds like a no-no in most sets I’ve been on, you know as well as I do, there’s a pecking order on the set. When you talk about a captain on a ship, it’s the same. When you get that top dog on a set, if it’s director, or producer, or whomever, everybody else is below them, and you’d better jump when they say jump, and the only question is, ‘How high sir?’

Barry: Here’s another story, this old boy, the head bouncer, his name was David Ogle, everybody called him ‘Killer’. He looked like a cotton bale with arms and legs. And we were standing there in line, and they gave us these gourmet meals for lunch. I said, ‘Well, David, you and I are gonna have a good meal.’ He said, ‘I’d give my right arm for a slice of white bread.’ He didn’t like that fancy food. He just wanted some white bread and baloney.

Paul: Lets talk the inner ‘Dallas’ for a minute. Now if you remember I stood in for both Larry and Patrick Duffy, so I kinda know those guys a bit. The way I remember him, Larry could be pretty sharp-edged if you didn’t remember your mark, your lines, or delayed production in any way. Our friends over Dallas Fanzine wanted me to ask you what’s your memories of Larry Hagman.

Barry: Larry, he was all right. I remember he got mad at me because I lost a bunch of weight when I was doing the series. I was supposed to have a heart attack in the series. I thought, well, what’s the first thing you do when you have a heart attack? Drop off a bunch of weight. So, I just started eating apples. When I was hungry, I’d eat an apple, and then that was it. I just ate apples. And I dropped down from about 220 to 190, and the next time I go over to the Dallas set, they had to alter my uniform and all that stuff. Larry says, how’d you lose all that weight? I said, ‘I just ate apples.’ He said, ‘what else?’ I said, ‘that was it. Just apples.’ And he just looked at me kind of with his mouth open and said, ‘You son-of-a-bitch!’

Paul: Of course that was, for anybody that’s not familiar, that was when you played ‘Sheriff Fenton Washburn’ on the set. It was a nice long run.

Barry: We were all right. We got along good. I liked Patrick.

As the reboot was shooting, Patrick told me, I had to come in and read the will on the show after Larry died. They brought me in to read the will, and I said to Patrick, ‘Well, I’m sorry to hear about Larry,’ and he said, ‘Yeah, the son-of-a-bitch had nerve, didn’t he? He died in the middle of the season!’

Paul: (serious guffawing)

Barry: I talked mostly to Linda and Charlene while I was there.

Paul: Linda’s great, she is absolutely amazing. You sit there and you look at her, and you go, she must have a Dorian Gray (relative perhaps? ;^) ) picture painted that sits in the closet, because she just doesn’t age. She’s still got those legs and such a classic beauty.

Barry: And she’s over 80 years old.

Paul: She is absolutely incredible.

Found some interesting trivia the other day. I’m sure you remember the iconic Dustin Hoffman photo for ‘The Graduate’ where he is looking over a great pair of legs.

“The Graduate” poster with Dustin Hoffman… and Linda Gray’s leg! Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Barry: That is pretty iconic.

Paul: Yeah, those are Linda Gray’s legs. The photographer said he was told they need somebody with really good legs for the ad campaign. So he says, I know somebody, he calls Linda, I think she said she was paid $25.00 to do that shot. One of the most iconic shots ever in show business and she made $25.00.

Barry: I never knew that.

Paul: I had heard some rumors of something like it but could never verify until I actually saw her talking about it on a video.

Barry: The last time I saw her was on a flight from LA to Dallas. Her birthday and my birthday are close, like within a week of each other. So, we were going to have a birthday party together, but we never did do it.

Paul: One thing that Dallas Fanzine asked me to ask you, was ‘Do you know why Sheriff Fenton Washburn disappeared after the sixth season? Were you working on something else?’

Barry: Oh, yeah, I was working on a bunch of other stuff. And also the Producers were scared I was going to ask for more money, I think.

Paul: Was Mr. Katzman, was that who you were dealing with?

Barry: Yeah, it was Katzman. He’s tight.

Paul: Nah…. (smiling)

It’s funny, because I always have this image of Mr. Katzman always in shorts no matter what time of year it was, and always with those tube socks up around his calves.

Barry: Yep, that’s him, he was a funny guy. I think, well, I worked in one show after Howard Keel came in. But pretty much after Jim Davis died, I didn’t work on it too much after that. And things started taking off after that. We did some movies with Burt Reynolds, Clint Eastwood and all of the big names in Hollywood back then.

After that we did “War Games” It was a pretty big hit for all of us. My part was General Beringer. Apparently the Director, John Badham, thought I reminded him of his dad who was an Air Force General.

I guess that movie had one of my more memorable lines.

Matthew Broderick was working on some computers trying to save the world and I ad-libbed the line “God damn it! I’d piss on a sparkplug if I thought it’d do any good! Let the boy in there, Major.” We had’em rolling in the aisles.

Paul: I remember the line. I was cringing!

Barry: It worked!

Barry Corbin and his famous ad-lib

Since then we’ve did a bunch of TV movies, features and TV shows, from M*A*S*H to Hill Street Blues to Matlock. And then in 1989 we did “Lonesome Dove”. I probably hear about that show from more people than any other one I was on. And we had a lot of fun making it.

When I first read the book, I called my agents and told them I had to be in it. I told them I’d play anything, just get me in it. It ended up being

‘Roscoe Brown’ which was fantastic. Different from most of my other parts.

Barry Corbin and John Corbett in “Northern Exposure”. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

And since then we’ve done a whole lot of character roles – and then came “Northern Exposure”. I didn’t really want to do a series. Most of them are pretty much just rehashing the pilot. But the writing was so superior to other pilots; we decided to take the 7-year contract for this show. It worked out pretty well.

Paul: Well, I’d say so, you got an Emmy nomination as “Best Supporting Actor”!

Barry: I’ve got a funny story about that too. Universal was being cheap then and didn’t pick up any expenses for the Nominees, so my daughter and I decided to come up to the building where the were having the awards…riding horses!” We didn’t win, but we had one heck of a night!

Anyway, that series cancelled in the mid 90’s and I’ve been doing a lot of character work ever since. Did a short stint on a show called “The Big Easy” that wasn’t too far from home, just over a piece in New Orleans.

Paul: I’m going to go forward a little bit here to ‘Anger Management’ and Charlie Sheen. Tell me little bit about that show.

Barry: Oh, it was fun. I took us about three times as long to shoot it as we planned, which means, since I was paid by the episode, I could’ve

Celia Weston, Sofia Vergara, Ed O’Neill and Barry Corbin in “Modern Family”. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

probably made more money greeting people at Walmart, but it was fun.

Paul: I think Martin Sheen was on that too, I met him a couple of years on a flick shooting in Fort Worth, ’12 Angry Orphans’

Barry: Oh, he’s a nice fella, yeah.

Paul: I love talking with him. We sitting there, being sure not to bother him. He just turns around starts talking to the three of us like we’ve been sitting in a boat fishing for half a day. We’d start talking in between the cuts. He wants to know everything about you, and then he remembers everything about you to the next day. A lot of them, they’ll just keep talking and blah, blah, blah, but he remembered everything. The next day we picked up, right from where we left off.

Barry: Oh, he’ll ask you questions. He’s really interested in people. Robbie Duvall was on that, too, wasn’t he?

Paul: Yes. I didn’t see him during my short time, but Luke Wilson was on in the shots I worked on

There’s another show that you worked on a little more recently, and that is ‘Better Call Saul’. If I had enough talent and I could choose a show, it would have been “Breaking Bad” or “Better Call Saul”. The character development in those two, just absolutely incredible.

Barry Corbin and the lovely Rhea Seahorn on the set of “Better Call Saul”. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Barry: I really enjoyed doing that one. I’d never seen Breaking Bad, I knew about it of course. And I’d never seen Better Call Saul before I did it.

Paul: You fit right in. It’s really interesting, like I say, the character developments on that are just absolutely incredible.

Now you spent a little time with Rhea Seehorn in the show.

I’ve got to ask you, she looks so darn cute.

Barry: Yeah. I’m still in touch with her sometimes.

Paul: So that brings up to, ‘what have you been doing lately?’

Barry: I’ve also been doing a lot of work for different organizations that I’m involved with, working with my horses and my grandkids. I’ve got to tell you, I feel like the luckiest guy in the world. Life has been good to my family and me.

Paul: I can see why!

Barry, do you have any words of wisdom for those wanting to go into your line of work?

Barry: Henry Fonda one time said that every time he had a job, he thought it was gonna’ be the last one. And, if you got any sense, you gotta’ think that because, you know when somebody’s gonna do a dip, some of ’em go pretty far down. So, it’s not like having any other kind of a job where you have a natural progression. You just don’t have it in this business. A lot of people are very successful – very young children, very young adults, but when the children’s voice changes, they’re out of work. They’ve got to build a whole other reputation. Most people don’t do it, most people can’t do it, unless you’re a Shirley Temple, you know. She’s was a very successful person, but not in show business.

Paul: Let’s take a quick turn here. I want to thank you for your service to our country in the Marines.

Barry: I appreciate it.

Paul: So, I’ve been trying to write a script the Vietnam/Laos war forever, but that’s a whole ‘nother thing. I’m telling you, those people that can write good screenplays, they are absolutely amazing. When you go out there and you try to do it yourself, holy cow, it’s hard.

Barry: I know. I’ve done it.

Paul: Have you actually written full scripts? Did any of them get made?

Barry: Yes, but I haven’t had anybody that ever wants to do them. I’ve written to write. I’ve written some plays that have been produced. I’ve got one play, or a couple of one-acts under the title Throckmorton, TX from the Dramatists Play Service out in New York, I don’t know, they may not have it in stock, but I don’t think anybody’s doing it right now. I’m not getting any money anyway.

Paul: No residuals.

Barry: No, but there I hadn’t got any for several years. You do little things. I’ve written several screenplays. I wrote pilots that I couldn’t ever get nobody interested in. I’m writing a book now.

Paul: You have 200-and-something credits to your name. There’s got to be some good stories built there.

Barry: Oh, I’ve got a bunch of stories. I just have to go through and make sure I don’t libel anybody!

Paul: Ha!

Barry: Well, you can’t lie anymore. This guy, he wanted to know if it was all right if they published my age. I said I don’t care. If anybody’s interested in that other than me, then they’re welcome to have it. If you want my name, you can go on the Internet and find it. If you want my age, it’s pretty easy to find now. You used to be able to lie about stuff like that. You can’t anymore.

So Paul, how old are you?

Paul: Just turned 70 this year.

Barry: You’re about the same age as my daughter.

Paul: Shannon? Shannon is the person that connected us for the 2003 interview so remind her I still owe her lunch.

Let’s talk about Shannon for a second. I know that up until 1991, you had two sons. Overnight you find out you have a bigger family than you thought. Can you kind of tell me how that happened?

Barry: What happened was that her, I was doing a season of Shakespeare up at the Colorado Shakespeare Festival, and her mother told me she might be pregnant, and I said well, we’d get married when I get back, because back then, that’s what people did. And then she told me, then I talked to her again about a week later, and she said, well, I won’t be here when you get back. I’m going to go over by the school. I guess I didnt think too much about it at the time as she wasn’t sure.

As it turns out she was pregnant, Shannon was her baby. Many years later Shannon had her own little baby, a boy, and he had some health problems that he was born with, and so she wanted to find out if they were genetic. So she found who her mother was and got in touch with her, and then she found out who I was. So, she told my agent.

Paul: So, Shannon actually had been given up for adoption?

Barry: Yes, she was raised by a doctor and his wife over in Arlington.

The first time I talked to her on the phone we talked for an hour. And then we got together and actually, about a month later, I flew her and her husband out to meet us. After that, we talked on the phone every day.

She lives right across the street from me now, so we’re pretty tight.

Paul: That’s incredible. That’s a good story. Now, you were working on Northern Exposure when all this happened?

Barry: That’s correct.

Paul: How is her son doing these days?

Barry: That’s Jordan and he’s doing great. He’s got three little kids.

Jordan Ross, Barry’s grandson, aka James the Lesser from the TV series “The Chosen”. Photo courtesy Jordan Walker Ross and Trilakes.org

Paul: So, you’ve got some great-greats there.

Barry: Let’s see, I’ve got three, four, yeah, five so far.

Paul: Oh my gosh. Isn’t that something? When you were young, you never thought you’d live to see the day, did you?

Barry: Well, I didn’t even think about kids when I was young.

Paul: Well, it certainly doesn’t sound like you missed a beat! We are gonna touch base back on the grandkids in a bit, but first I want to talk about something that I know is very important to you. The NAAF Conference. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Barry: It’s the National Alopecia Areata Foundation.

In a nutshell, it’s an autoimmune disorder that causes people to lose their hair.

Some people lose all their hair; some people lose part of their hair. I lost part of mine, not all of it. Some of those people didn’t have any eyelashes, eyebrows, anything.

Bald-headed people don’t understand what it is and they see somebody without any hair, and it makes you look different. For kids, that becomes a very difficult thing. For some adults it becomes very difficult. It just never did bother me that much. About five years ago, I noticed my hair was going and it wasn’t a big deal, but some have a real hard time accepting it and what’s worse, their friends and co-workers have a hard time accepting it. For example, when I started losing my hair, a rumor went around that I was taking chemotherapy and I was sick. And that’s not a good thing to have in our business. It’s all about the perception of the people that are doing the hiring. Somebody asked me if I had lost any jobs as a result of the hair loss, and I said “Yeah, probably, but I probably wouldn’t want to do them anyway.”

But, the thing of it is, a lot of people, when they get something to make them look odd to other people, they retreat rather than come out and say what it is, and so that makes it worse on them physiologically. I said “Now, anybody asks you about it, anybody looks at you funny, tell them what you have, not only tell ’em what you have, tell ’em it’s not catching You’re not gonna’ catch it from me. You might catch it from your own body, ’cause that’s what causes it, but you’re not gonna catch it from me.”

Paul: Barry, did Jordan ever ask your advice or opinion about the art of acting?

Barry: He never did, he just told me he was gonna’ do it. You know, anybody that’s gonna’ do that, if they’ve got to have validation from somebody else, they better not do it.

I had a college professor who kept trying to get me to get a teaching certificate so that I could teach or do something so that I’d have something else that I could do. And he kept discouraging me to try and do this professionally. Well, about 20 years later I saw him and I said “why did you always discourage me?” He said “because if I could discourage you, you’d be discouraged.”

And the reason for that is, if you think about it, the best level of a normal life, a doctor, lawyer, salesman, anything. You will go out and get a job, you might be turned down three or four times, but you’ll get a job. And for the most part, you’re gonna stay with that job for your whole career, maybe you’ll change once or twice. Most people might be rejected four, five, six, eight, ten times in a lifetime and that can be tough to handle. For an actor, you’re rejected eight or ten times a day.

And in this business all you’ve got to sell is yourself. You’re not selling products, they’re not turning down a car, they’re turning you down. Most people can’t handle that. Most people are essentially not set up that way. It’s sort of like the priesthood, you don’t choose it, it chooses you. No matter how good you are, you got to have enough humility to observe other people, we’re all observers. You got to have the egotism to say what you’ve got to say. Nobody else can say it as well as you can. You’ve got to be a peculiar type of person to do this. If you’re not that kind of a person, then you better do Community Theater and just enjoy it!

In a way, you have to re-invent yourself. None of us wants our work to be boring. Every human being in the world has a public persona and private persona, and, sometimes we don’t know the difference, but we’ve all got it.

Usually, when somebody who’s in the public eye a lot, goes out say, to the grocery store, you’ve got to consider that you’re probably gonna talk to 30-40 people. If you don’t feel like talking to ’em, you better send somebody else. Because if you get nasty with one of ’em, he’s gonna say “see that guy on television, he’s mean.” Now, their friends are gonna say it to ten other people….”that guy was mean to my friend.” Pretty soon the word gets around that you’re a jerk. So you’ve got to have a public persona which is what you present to the people who watch you, which is not too different from what you play on television, film, stage, wherever you work.

Paul: Well, I don’t see that you’re any different in person then seeing you on stage or the screen. You are very comfortable to talk to.

Barry Corbin in his iconic role as General Beringer in “War Games”. Courtesy MGM/UA Entertainment and Barry Corbin

Barry: Well, you have to do that especially, in all medias. If you stray to far from what the public sees, then it confuses them, you know? We’re all typecast, but we’re better off if we typecast ourselves before we get started. That way you get yourself a broad spectrum rather than a bare spectrum. You’ve always got to be aware of that. Every time, early in my film career, I had to get to the point where I’d track own anybody that was writing in a sheriff, because that’s all I was doing. I’ve known some actors that play nothing but lawyers, and doctors and stuff.

And if they’re happy doing that, that’s fine, but I’m not happy with no diversity.

Paul: What are you happy doing?

Barry: Just about anything. However when I look at the script, and if it’s a project that I can’t bring something fresh to, or that’s not been accomplished before, then I’m not interested in doing it.

Paul: And you are definitely an original. Have you found it difficult to be the original person that you are with the industry? Has it hindered you, helped you, I think you know what I mean.

Barry: Oh, it’s done hindered. It’s been a hindrance something awful.

Ben Johnson one time told me that “I’m not the best actor in the world, but I am the best Ben Johnson.” And so, I kind of go along with him. I may not be the best actor, but I’m the best me that I can be, right now.

There’s been some difficulties, you know. But anybody who’s trying to create something, you know, you’ve got to be true to your own vision, but you also got to bear in mind that you’re working for somebody else so you can’t just out and out declare war on ’em – although I’ve done that a few times. You’ve got to do it in a certain way that they can save face

But, what happens is that if you don’t give them an out, you gonna’ close the door forever. And I’ve done that once or twice.

Paul: Have you gone back and have you apologized to certain people for some of the things that you’ve done along that way?

Barry: I’ve done that maybe twice. It’s not painful to do if you feel like it’s the right thing to do.

If you go back and apologize for something in order to get some kind of gain, monetary gain, then it’s wrong. But if you go back and apologize to somebody because you were wrong, that’s not a difficult thing to do. I mean we’re all wrong sometimes.

Well, there’s nothing more disparaging than to see an old, beat-down actor.

When I lived in New York, there was this man, this gay man, who would come into interviews, auditions, you know, hang around the Equity Lounge. And he always wore very nice suits, but they were ragged, but obviously nice suits. He wore a little fancy mustache with colored mascara and hair dyed just black and fluffy. He was 70 something years old. And he was listed in the players guide as leading man. But he never got a job – he had some success in Summer Stock, but he never had any real success in New York.

Anyway, he had gone through his whole life as an actor, probably not making as much money as he’d make building hamburgers over at the Burger King, if you put it all together. Yet, he still considered himself a leading man. You know, he’d come in and his zipper and his fly was broken and he’d have ’em mended with safety pins. But, he still believed it. The thing that’s very disparaging is somebody who no longer believes it, but still is kinda’ giving it a half-horse try, you know? And there are a lot of people like that, people who get into their 30’s, 40’s and realize that this is not gonna’ happen. But they stay with it and stay with it. Finally, when they’re in their 60’s, they don’t have enough pension, they don’t have anything, so they become very bitter people.

Funny thing though, that man wasn’t bitter, he still had his eye on that gold. Yeah, he may have been crazy but he wasn’t bitter. A great many people in this business, they take, and take, and take until finally they become bitter. And that’s very discouraging. That’s why I don’t encourage the kids to get into show business because no matter how successful or unsuccessful you are, it’s a very, very difficult business for most people. As for me, it’s the only thing that I can do and it’s all I want to do so I’m perfectly happy with the whole thing. But the odds that you’re gonna be very happy in this line of work are pretty slim.

Paul: Do you sometimes get tired of people asking you all the stuff I’ve been asking you? Do you just want them to say, ‘Hey, let’s go out and play a game of pool, let’s go down here and rope those horses, this is my new little puppy dog, forget this interview, let’s just have a good time?’

Barry: Well, no, I don’t. If I’m overwhelmed, I wouldn’t have agreed to this interview. I didn’t have to this. You know what, if I did everything that people wanted me to do, spoke at everything they wanted me to speak at, did all the other stuff they wanted me to do, I wouldn’t have time to do anything else. So I make up a reason I can’t do it, sometimes a legitimate reason. And, I usually have conflicts. It’s not a common thing for somebody to say “can you come to this function?” If I feel like the function is worth doing and something that’s important, then I’ll make time to do it. If it’s not, then I say “well, I’ve got something else.”

Paul: Now, looking over IMDb, you now have about 222 credits, so out of all those credits, you must have a favorite character that you played. Who would that be?

Barry: Oh, I couldn’t say. I just enjoy the work. I couldn’t say what my favorite was. They’re all good, because they all present different problems. I’d like to do a show where I have to learn a new skill, if I had to play an airline pilot, or, but one of my favorites was a show called Conagher, because I had to learn how to drive six horses on a stagecoach. It’s a TV movie with Sam Elliott and Katherine Ross.

Paul: If you could magically go back to one set for a day, same crew, same actors, might it be that show you’re talking about?

Barry: Yeah, that would be one of them, I guess. I got to have a conversation with Ken Curtis on that. I’d never met him before, and that was just before he died, so that was the last thing he did. So, I got to have a conversation with him.

Paul: Yeah, he was a big Dallas Cowboy fan. We just ran across a picture of him with, I think it’s with Dave Manders, on our sister page, ‘Memories of Texas Football’. I’ll send you a copy.

The last time we talked, your granddaughter was 9 years old. She’d been doing a little singing. She’d sing the National Anthem at the ballpark, I believe.

Barry: Yeah, that’s Tori. She’s got a little boy now. She’s married and got a little boy. He’s, I think, two years old now.

Paul: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Isn’t it amazing? So how about, now Jordan, he was doing some acting back then.

Barry: Yeah, he’s still doing some good work. He’s doing a show now called ‘The Chosen’, it’s about Jesus and the disciples. And he’s getting a lot of good feedback from that.

Paul: That’s incredible! I think it was Jordan that contacted Shannon back on the old Yahoo email lists for us to talk the first time. I guess I owe both he AND Shannon lunch!

Barry, is there anything you’d like to say to all the members of Memories Inc?

Barry: Well, once we can get back to where we can get an audience together, I’m going to be doing a one-man show, ‘An Evening with Barry Corbin.’ It’s going to be film clips and me talking, and then we’re going to have a question and answer conversation with the audience. We don’t have anything booked yet, because we don’t know when we can do it. We’ve got a lot of interest all over the country. I’m sure we’ll do it somewhere around Dallas/Fort Worth.

Paul: Let me know, or ask Linda to call me and let me know.

Barry: Well, I’ll be doing it at a high school in Fort Worth whenever we can get back to doing normal stuff. That’ll be the first production of it, so I’ll tell her to get in touch with you on that.

Paul: Absolutely. We’ve got nearly 40,000 members on Facebook’s ‘Memories of Dallas’, I will definitely put that out there and let everybody know, and they’re all over the place.

Barry: Sounds good.

Paul: I appreciate your time, sir, and if you’re ever over Dallas way, give me a holler, I’ll grab Linda, and we’ll go get something to eat, my treat.

Barry: Okay. I will. I appreciate it. Good job on the interview.

Paul: You are an easy fella to talk to, have a good evening!

Barry: Thanks.

One of my favorite photos of Barry, courtesy Texas Monthly, ‘The Seven Ages of Barry Corbin’ , Nov 23. 2020. All credit to them. You can see him now on the series “Tulsa King”

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]]> https://meminc.org/barrycorbin/feed/ 4 2491 JOHN FITZGERALD BOOTY PART 2 https://meminc.org/johnbooty2-2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=johnbooty2-2 Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:14:48 +0000 https://memoriesoftexasfootball.org/?p=1221 You end your NFL career, 102 games, 37 starts, 14 picks, 4 sacks, 6 fumble recoveries, 4 fumbles, a blocked punt, a pass reception for 48 and a kickoff return. You picked off two Hall of Fame quarterbacks in Marino and Aikman. I mean, the kid that played one year of football until your junior year of high school, the kid that got cut from the JV, the kid that Mom put in a car and made go back to college because he didn't want to be there - but he stuck it out. That was John Booty.

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Continued from Part 1…

…the head coach of Daingerfield had talked to our head coach. Coach says “Listen, we wanna invite you guys come watch us play in the semi-finals. And we got tickets for you. And we gonna win for you. And because you are the only team that scored on us.”

We only team gave them any trouble. We could have beat them. But Coach Reynolds asked us, “Hey, do you guys wanna stop?” He asked the team, we said, “No. We don’t wanna stop.” That was the quietest bus ride. I mean, that was a long bus ride, too. That was a long bus ride. Oh, my god. That was a long bus ride. But it was a quiet bus ride back home to Carthage.

And so, that was the end of my high school football career. I didn’t think I was gonna get to the next level. Or so I thought…

John Fitzgerald Booty, Part 2

by Paul Heckmann

Executive Director, Memories Incorporated, a 501c3 Non-Profit

Paul Heckmann: So you are resigned to the fact that your football career is probably over. What happened next?

John Booty: TCU said they looked at me, but they weren’t going to put any scouts on me. I knew what that meant. I ended up playing basketball my senior year and ran track because I had something to prove. TCU said, ‘We’ll invite you as a walk-on. But if you make the team, we’ll look at giving you a scholarship.’

I couldn’t afford that so I had pretty much set my mind on becoming a construction worker like my dad.

We were at track practice getting ready for a regional meet, my secondary coach, Coach Harrison, came to me. He said, “John, have you heard of Cisco Junior College?”

I said, “I’ve heard of it, but that’s a long ways from home.” And he said, “Well, Cisco would like to talk to you.” And they had asked Coach Harrison if Carthage had any hidden talent. And he said, “I told them about you”. And he said “The running back’s coach is gonna come, the offensive coordinator for the Cisco gonna come. They’re gonna watch film on you.” They came and talked to me, Coach says, “Hey, you’re a good athlete. We’ll offer you a scholarship.”

I said, “I’ll come if you let me play wide receiver.”

And he said, “Okay, you can play wide receiver.” And then I said, I was like, “Okay.”

And then I think I eased around and talked to my head coach. ‘Well, have you talked to them?’ So I think he said he called them and told them “Well, you take the game film, so you can watch the game film on your TV. “

Cisco Downtown

Now how I made up my mind was interesting. The head coach said, “John, we need to know what you’re gonna do because we’re getting ready to have the senior assembly, and who are you gonna sign with? And, obviously, you’re gonna sign with Cisco.”

I said, “Yeah. I’m gonna sign with Cisco.”

So, I had to call Cisco, say, “Yeah, I’m gonna sign with you,” at the last moment because I didn’t go visit. And so that was how I ended up signing with Cisco Junior College.

And have you ever been to Cisco? It’s out in the middle of nowhere, and on a hill. I didn’t go visit, but I heard about it. And the first time going there was before two-a-days started. I pull up, there’s a place called Bivins Hall, it’s like an old fort, later on they told me they said it was haunted. But as my mom was leaving, I’m like, “Don’t go. Don’t go. Come back and get me. This is a boy’s home! ‘Oh, god, This is not what I want. This is not paradise!’

Downtown Cisco today

So, Cisco’s really out in the middle of nowhere. I’m intimidated anyway, new kid. Seen all these other guys, all freshmen coming in from these bigger schools. We’re down the field. We can get our equipment first. Everybody’s sizing each other up. Who’s first in line, these 60-some, 50-60-some pounds. And getting out on the field, that low hill down there, walked out to this field, and guys like they’re superstar athletes, track stars getting ready to run the 40.

So, we ran the 40s and all that jazz. We had to go down physician meetings and whatnot afterwards. Because we had the team meeting. We had to go the physician meet after we ran the 40s.

So, I’m going to the receivers’ meetings. And the current Coach, he didn’t call my name.

Coach Anderson, who recruited me, he said, “If I didn’t call your name, come up to me afterwards.” And after the meeting, I said, “Coach?” He looked up. I said, “You didn’t call my name.” He said, “Hey, John. Yeah. Okay.” And he just quietly wrote my name down.

Like that is weird and as soon as I walked out of there, the defense coordinator Rick Frasier, and the secondary coach who had drove up, who had spotted me, said, “Booty, where were you?”

John at Cisco Junior College

I said, “Coach, I was in the meeting.” He like, “We didn’t bring you here to play receiver. We bought you play defensive back.” Oh. I said, “Oh, okay.” And so, I started going to the defensive meetings, and all that. That was how I started playing DB

The freshmen meet and practice, then the sophomores come in. We’d practice with them.

One guy is like, “Man, you got good hips. The way you move, you’re a good athlete.” So, I found it pretty cool to be told that by a sophomore.

Labor Day, we had our first game after Labor Day, I think it was. But I was homesick. And the coach allowed me to go home for Labor Day. And another guy, he practiced – another freshman practiced at my place. And I come back and then he said, “John, you made the travel squad.”

So, I made the travel squad. And we won the first game. And I got some playing time throughout the year, but I wasn’t a starter. Because our starters are really good. We had about 15 guys from that sophomore team go off to the major universities, big colleges. I think Cisco was really the first “last-chance university”.

And we won 8 and 2, and didn’t make a bowl game. We lost by, I think, about a total of four points. You heard of Ranger Junior College?

Paul: Of course, strong program.

John: Yeah. We lost to them by one point. And man, I didn’t touch the field in that game because that was serious, that was our rival. But overall as a freshman, I got some playing time. Coach says I had potential.

So, during the Christmas break, I went home. I had a girlfriend, and, you know how it is out in the country. Some time passed, well, my mom, I think she got a letter in the mail, and she said, “Baby, aren’t you supposed be back at Cisco?” I said, “Yeah, mom. But, you know, we got time.”

I go to my room, and I hear her say, “Hey, baby. Come here.” I said, “Uh-huh?” She said, “Go back in your room, pack up all your stuff because the boy’s gonna take you back to Cisco tomorrow.” But I was trying to quit. And I didn’t wanna go back to Cisco. So, she made me get back to Cisco. And I got back to Cisco a week late that fall semester of ’85. And the head coach, I knew head coach, he was our defense coordinator, Rick Frasier, just first head coaching job at Cisco.

Paul: I told you, you had the best Mom!

John: Yes I did. Anyway Coach Fraiser said, “Way to go, Booty. That’s where you put yourself behind the eight ball, and fall behind in class. Now you gotta really talk with you professors and making you get caught up.” And after that, he still made me like one of the team captains that season. Now we’ve never played on Thursdays but this year some games we have Thursday night games because of who we’re playing. So, we out for the whole weekend.

And Dallas Cowboys were playing on a Sunday. And one of my friends, Mike Johnson, was good friends with Rickey Jackson. And Rickey Jackson was playing for the New Orleans Saints against Dallas at Texas Stadium.

And we asked Coach could we miss Sunday night meeting so we could go to the Cowboys game. And the head coach and the defensive coordinator said, “Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead and go. But you just be back for your class on Monday.” So, we said, “Okay.”

And we get there, and I met Rickey Jackson. And Mike introduced me and another linebacker to Rickey Jackson. Said, “These are my teammates.” Rickey Jackson looked at me, said, “Man, you play football? You too little to play football.” I’m like, “Golly. Thanks, Rickey.” And my friend, Mike, he was like, “John, uh. No.” he said, “No, he’s a football player.” He said, “You need to put some meat on.”

I said, “Damn, got called out by a Pro Bowler.”

Paul: How much were you weighing then.

John: Ooh, 160. Between 160 and 165.

Paul: But you were about 6’ though, right?

John: Yeah, 6’. but it was like better legs on a table, but I didn’t lift weights, I wasn’t living in the weight room.

Paul: Right.

John: So, going back to the spring, we had this hill, man at Cisco. They make us run on that hill and have us doing the time missing work and lift weights. And we made the best of it. And I got my 40 speed down to a 4.37.

Paul: Wow.

John: And I was the fastest guy on the team. One practice, he had us line up, just run 100 yards. And we pretty much spot everybody about 40 yards, they running hard and we’re coasting. And then he and I would just turn on and just smoke everybody to get to that 100.

That summer break, my two classmates from Cisco and Carthage, we’re visiting TCU, because TCU had an unbelievable team in 1984 and went to the Bluebonnet Bowl in Houston. So, they was high on the hog. And so that spring going into the summer of the ’85, they was looking to repeat.

And, Mom, she let me go to Dallas with Ricky and them after my freshman year at Cisco. And I didn’t have a job, and Ricky gotten a job working construction with a TCU alumni. I was supposed to, so I got a job working construction.

John: But when I went back to Cisco, and they’re like, “Man.” Because I’m working out with the guys at TCU, running and conditioning. He said, “John, you’re looking good, man. You’re legs look stronger.” And I made All American and in my sophomore year had like three interceptions, a whole bunch of pass defenses, and running folks down. Yeah, Cisco get to a bowl game!

And a lot of teams come calling for me then, Tulane, Illinois, Texas A&M and TCU.

And coach told me, “Hey, John. University of Miami has an interest in you.” But I was, well, leaning heavily towards TCU, ‘Man, they just offered me as a walk on, you know, coming out of high school’. And that stuck with me.

Paul: Absolutely.

John: Plus I knew the guys because I worked out with them and partied with them during the summer. So, I end up going to TCU after that.

And now at Cisco, I just love, love, love Cisco, really. Me and some of the guys go back down to Cisco. This group of us go back down to speak to the football team and go to the lake, go to the lodge, reminisce, and party like it’s 1999. And it’s the boys’ weekend at the Lake Cisco Lobo Lounge.

Paul: It’s not like with that fort that when you first got there and you were begging your Mom to take you back to Carthage?

John: No. No, it’s not. Well, it ain’t too much different from it. But I think they have a new dorm for the players down Route 6. But Bivins is still there. And it looks better. But it’s still like it’s in the wild, wild west.

Paul: Man, I went to school in Kingsville at Texas A & I. I know exactly what you’re talking about, man. Neither one looks like the Garden of Eden. When they were working on the field or protecting it, we would practice on the side. ‘The Rock Pile’, it took my right knee. The left knee went on a 10 and out the year before.

John: Ouch. We tell the kids when we go back to Cisco, said, “Man, how many people wanna come to Cisco on a Friday night?” When you get out of here, we appreciate it. Yeah. We look forward to going to Cisco on a Friday night just to reminisce. But I know when I was there, we were looking forward to get out of Cisco on a Friday night. Yeah.

You said were at the Kingsville? Darrell Green came from there, right?

Paul: Darrell came about three or four years after I left. I think he came in in ’79 or ’80 if I remember. I left a day or so after the Championship in 1976.

John: Yeah. That’s right. And I know he got drafted in ’83. So, he’s coming in at ’79.

Paul: I was there with David Hill. You probably know him from NFL Alumni

John: Okay. So, John Randall. He went there. Right?

Paul: Oh, yeah. He does like to talk.

John: Yeah, that’s John, We talk every once in a while. And Darrell Green. And I know Gene Upshaw went there.

Paul: Exactly. But let’s back to John Booty and TCU.

John: Yes!

Let me tell you a story about Cisco, I told Mike Renfro this a couple of years ago.

And I said, “Mike, you made me famous,” I said. He said, I was in line getting our letter from upper level schools while I was at Cisco. And I get a letter, and the header says, “Dallas Cowboys” with the helmet and star on it. I’m like, “Oh, my god.” And everybody saw, “Ooh, “John, you’re heard from the Dallas Cowboys. So, it was a recruiting letter from the Dallas Cowboys letterhead to me, recruited by Mike Renfro… because he went to TCU.

Paul: And your head – and ego is spinning!

John as a TCU Horned Frog

John: Yeah (laughs). I said, “Mike, I’ve always been a fan of yours. Even when you was the oldest in the Cowboys, I used to love the way you used to jump up and catch a pass. So, why did you ever do that?” He said, “One time I caught a pass, and my leg’s on the ground and the guy hurt my knee.” He said, “From then on out, I just start leaving my foot – leaving the ground just a little bit, so I won’t get my foot caught.”

I said, “That’s pretty cool.” I said, ‘That’s Mike Renfro.” So, I said, and then, “That helped me kinda like wanna go to TCU.”

And when I was home for a Thanksgiving before the bowl game, Tulane flew me in. My first time I ever ride a plane was out of Shreveport, Louisiana to New Orleans and to go visit Tulane. And my first time on a plane. I’m like, “Oh, my god. Please, please, please.” And so, I leave Shreveport and get to New Orleans. And on the way back from New Orleans, and it’s like they put us on the smallest plane in the history of planes, a little crop duster. And that scared the dickens out of me.

We were like over Lake Pontchartrain, and all that, I was praying, “Oh, my god. And if it goes down, teach me how to swim. I’ll swim the alligators, pythons, whatever’s in that, teach me to swim like Tarzan so I get out.”

Paul: (laughs) Well you are here today I guess you either learned to swim on the way into the water or you didn’t crash

John: Thanks god we didn’t crash.

Paul: Indeed.

And now you’re in the big league. TCU Frogs. Big 12 play. Exciting, eh? Fast lights, big city!

John: The big city, right?

Paul: So, you’re in the big city, at least it’s a bigger city than you’ve been in.

John: Yeah. Bigger. Way Bigger. Yeah. Bigger than all the cities I’ve lived in put together. Yeah.

Paul: I mean, when you think of it, that’s some big changes in your life.

John: It is a big change.

Paul: What was the most overwhelming part of that?

John: Well, when I got to TCU, first thing was a weight program. And they weighed me in at 170. And I wasn’t strong. We had to max out and doing max stuff. And it was so bad you can’t even record something. I can’t even lift that, so I had to go to work on it.

And then the workout program there, the mat drills, when they take it through the off-season program, ooh, that stuff is tough.

And everybody pretty much is blue chipper. It don’t matter what you go play for now. Because TCU had a lot of blue chippers, then Coach Wacker let them all go because that situation with the boosters.

Paul: Oh I forgot about that (TCU declared seven players ineligible for accepting money from boosters including All-America Kenneth Davis. Texas oilman Dick Lowe, a TCU booster, admitted helping establish the fund and released a stunning letter outlining details of the fund, to which he says 50-60 boosters contributed and from which as many as 29 players received monthly payments in 1980 and beyond. FA Dry was blamed for starting it to ‘keep up with the big state schools’)

John: But we had some other young guys, a great recruiting class with some great HS players. And I learned as a junior college player, even though I knew some of the guys on the team, a lot of other guys didn’t know me. But there’s a transition that the junior college guy has to make. Because I’m coming in to take the incumbent’s place, so they don’t like that. So, I gotta make that transition.

And then I gotta make the transition into the classroom too. And I don’t think I’ll make the transition. I was always a mostly quiet guy. I like to fun, but I wasn’t I’ll say ‘Out there’.

In looking back, sometimes I could be misled because I wanna be inclusive. But I was always like, ‘If it’s get too rough; I’m gonna take a step back, you know?’

Paul: Okay.

John: But they worked us. Oo-oo-oo-wee, they worked us hard. Oh, my god. I’m like, “Jeez.” But it was a great, great, great experience. And I end up earning the starting spot, left corner spot.

Paul: That’s the busy spot vs right-handers. And was Wacker the head coach then?

John: It was Jim Wacker.

Paul: Okay. The old Texas Lutheran coach. Solid coach!

John: Yeah. Yeah, that’s him. Coach Wacker. And Coach Dawson was my secondary coach. And summer comes, I’d had a summer job for as I worked for Lennox Air Conditioning. And go work out. And then something happened when Lennox was laying folks off, or whatnot. And I just went home, finished up, and came back for the tour days. Even that was tough. And all that turf down, and I’m used to the Texas heat anyway, right?

Paul: Sure.

John: So, we play that first game of the season against Tulane, and we beat them. Tony Jeffers had a hell of a game. Seemed like he had over 300-some yards rushing. And I remember I was so excited – it was my first Power Five, a big-time college football game.

Paul: Right.

John: First tackle. I was like jumping around and all this jazz. We beat Tulane. And then I think we beat Kansas State. But I learned once we got into playing SMU, they were still powerful. Well, one of my junior college classmates left Cisco with me, David West, he went All American at SMU.

SMU beat us pretty good, I’m like, “Man, these guys are really good.”

Paul: Welcome to the SWC!

John: And this was the first of the Southwest Conference. And somewhere, I thought I wanted the Southwest Conference, but it was no joke.

So, we played. And because of guys who was suspended, we were so young. It was rough. We thought we had more.

Arkansas. Arkansas was ranked that year. I’m like, “Man, these guys are just freakin’ talented.”

Because somebody said, “I just never have liked Baylor.” But they are world class. So, making their adjustments, if I’m realizing – sophomore year to my junior year, huge difference in the level of play.

Paul: Oh, yeah. SWC had some strong teams at the time you guys played them.

John: Exactly. It was like I’m gonna shut down, but I thought, “Come on, John.” I learned you never could rest.

Back then, I just really studied football. And now they say, “Watch film.” I didn’t. Even in high school, I didn’t watch film. We watched it as a group because Coach was right there but, it’s just like am I supposed to come in and watch it all the time, or what?

Sometimes you learn as you go. Things really started to change about that time and when I got to the NFL.

Paul: Before that you didn’t need to much, you were an athlete, and you adapted. And at some point, everybody else is just as good, plus they study film and they’re bigger and stronger.

John: Sometimes it takes a while to learn. But we ended beating Houston and then we go into the last game of the season, Texas A&M. And when I said ‘they stomped the mud holes in us and walked it dry’, they did exactly that. We were down at A&M. Oh. They beat the stuffing out of us. But I wouldn’t stop. I mean, I was running guys down and going. Because of like you’re on the field, we’re not gonna quit. No, we’re not gonna – but we lost 70-something to 10.

Paul: Ouch.

John: I mean, we was hustling. I knew I was hustling.

But, man. But I think after the last game, I’m like ‘I didn’t have the season I wanted’. But I’m looking better, because I was learning how to adjust to the big-time football players. I wouldn’t give up.

So, after the winter break, we had a team meeting. Coach Wacker just up and said he has to make some tough, tough, tough decisions. And I’m like, “Wow. He’s fired our secondary coach.” And so, I had a chance to talk to Coach Dawson. He was heartbroken because he loved the game. I talk to him now sometimes. And he said, “John, you were so fresh, so green. I was looking so forward to coaching you your senior year, to kick you up to the next level because you have the potential.”

The new coach came in from Baylor University, Rick Johnson. “John, you gonna be the incumbent.”

They bought in two of the junior college teammates, I’m like welcoming the competition because it’s gonna make us all better.

And, so, this new coach comes in and say you’re gonna do this. You talk a good game. And I went to him after. I said, “Listen, I know my goal is to become All Southwest Conference. And I’m gonna work my tail off.” And this really happened. Because when I set my mind to it, I was gonna make it happen, just like in high school.

And I remember going through all the off-season workout programs. And the first gig, first day of spring ball, I mean, this guy was like, “Yeah, you should. Go for it.” He encouraged me. And the first day of spring ball, I jumped inside and get a interception. Big time play. This guy jumps my case. “Hey John, what’re you doing?” I said, “Making a play, Coach.” He said, “You don’t do that.” I’m like, “I thought you wanted us to get an interception,” I’m saying to myself.

So, a couple plays later, I jump. And I’m getting sacks and knocking the ball down. But then I missed it and the guy catch it and scores. And he jumped my case again. And from Day 1, I was in his doghouse.

Paul: Oh, wow.

John: And they won. I was after someone and everybody was getting it in the drills getting in practice. I hear my head spinning. And like, man, why this guy’s really hard on me? We had a guy named Mickey Matthews who was our secondary coach. I said, “Mickey, Coach Matthews, what’s going on with this guy?” He says, “John, just keep going. Just keep going.”

And I finally got my head wrapped around his defense. And after spring break and I start playing well, and he’s like, “Man, John ya got it down.” But he was just nitpicking, nitpicking, nitpicking on me all the time.

So, I go home during the summer, work hard and come back. “Okay, you got your act together. You’re ready to go.”

And first day of two-a-days, we have to run these the testing drills. I’m willing myself through that.

And I said, “Man, I’m gonna make it happen.” And I end up competing with the two guys they brought in, and still get the starting job. And I’m playing against Boston College. For some odd reason, he didn’t like the way I lined up on the field and the guys he brought in, one in particular got beat deep on touchdowns. And he just jumped MY case. And it like…

And another time, he like jumped my case again. I’m like, “Ooh, what is going on with this guy?” It was bad. It was up and down, off and on all season till one point he just benched me. He benched me! I had a knack for blocking field goals, is whatnot. So, I’ve got one against Houston and a couple other teams.

So, right before the half, I was just laying out for a field goal because the guy hit me. Their blocker drove me right into the holder. So, he got on my case about that. And then halftime, he said, “John, you’re not going in the game in the second half.”

And I didn’t touch the field. And everybody, after the game was like, “Man, you were all over the field in the first half. We just kept hearing your name, hearing your name. But what happened in the second half?” That embarrassed me. So, I got mad and got benched. They put a freshman in front of me. And so, we go down to Waco to play Baylor, his team, where he come from.

And the freshman gets hurt in the first quarter. And who has to go in? Me. I did everything in that game right except get a interception. I’m knocking passes down all over the field. We beat Baylor 24 to 0. And after the game, he could hardly say a thing to me. And then we played some other teams. I do well. Then he just doesn’t like me. Towards the end of the season, he kicked me off the field because I was hustling. And he just didn’t like the way I was. And it cost the team.

He even told me onetime at practice, said I need to slow down.

NY Jets early scouting report on John

And I told a pro scout what he said. The pro scout said, “Don’t ever listen to that guy. You go 100 miles a hour all the time.” And I ended up starting the last game of the season, got an interception. We’re playing at Amon G. Carter Stadium in Fort Worth, I was playing well. And it was an inconsistent year for me. I didn’t have the year I wanted to because this coach just didn’t like the way I was.

And yet I met people who said I was the best athlete on the team. And pro scouts would come and question me, “Why is John is not playing?” And the coach wouldn’t tell them. “He’s had a little difference with the coach.” I didn’t cuss at him. I didn’t fuss at him. I just put my head down and go to work. And my mom, when I wanted to quit, she said, “Don’t quit because somebody’s always watching.”

Paul: And guess what, they were. That one coach probably prepped you for what you were about to see in the NFL.

John: Exactly. And I told him I’m not gonna quit, I’m gonna keep going. And after the season, well, situations happen, and I got invited to the NFL Combine. And I performed at the NFL Combine. Now Combine has some heavy hitters. Like Keith Jackson and Tim Brown and Rickey Dickson and Michael Irvin.

Paul: What a lineup!

John: We had some guys, man. These guys could play.

And, I was in Atlanta with my agent. And when I got drafted when I was in an airport because I supposed to go to in the ninth round. All of a sudden I heard, “John Booty, call your agent” over the intercom. I’m like, what? Did you hear my name called?

And then I called my agent. “You just got drafted by the New York Jets!”

So, I was so excited, man, I was celebrating with all the people I didn’t know in the Atlanta Airport, whoever walked by while I was on the payphone. And they did. And I said, “Man, this is a great feeling.”

John Booty’s Rookie Topps Card NY Jets

But I didn’t go back to that coach and throw it in his face. When I see him, “Well, hey, coach,” and just keep going.

Because I had overcame, you know?

Paul: Good feeling, eh?

John: Oh yea.

I read where the Jets said, when they came to look at me, they looked at my junior film because I’m not getting a lot of playing time my senior year. They said, “We like that he wasn’t a chicken. He was always hustling, and he made the big plays.” My big plays were not necessarily interceptions and stuff like that, just but you right there. You know, you never quit even when the coach isn’t with you.

Paul: Right.

John: And so, the Jets thought I was still there in the 10th round. They said, “Do you want them?” They, “Yeah. Let’s get him.”

So, I got up that Sunday morning at the agent’s townhouse, condo, and look at the Atlanta paper, and I see all the draft choices from one through six in the Sunday paper. And I see the Jets, New York Jets, second round pick, Terry Williams out of Texas Christian University.

I said, “What, we didn’t have a Terry Williams?, They meant to pick me.” I’m like, “They made a mistake. They wanted me.” And I’m joking with my agent.

And then I get drafted by the New York Jets. And when we had our first mini-camp, I was thankful. But the one person who I wanted to see was Terry Williams. Who is this Terry Williams guy? Come to find out, he was also a DB and went to Bethune-Cookman College.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

John: And he was something else. He was built strong.

And when I got to 175, the weight at the Combine. And all during mini-camp, I’m all over the field, making a name for myself at that time.

I’m sitting at my locker wondering if I am gonna get cut and the secondary coach said, “John come here.” I’m thinking “Oh no, here we go. Here we go.”

Paul: Waiting for him to say “Bring your playbook son.”

John: You know it! So, I go down this little hall. He said, “I see you sitting there looking like you’re worried. Don’t worry. You made the team. You’re good.”

I think I floated back to my locker room. Then I went and said, “Listen, I gotta get on a pay phone. Let go call my mom.” I went and called Mom. Said, “Mom, I made it, I made it, I made it, I made the team.”

She told me to keep hustling because they can cut you at any moment.

Paul: Right.

John: So, you had to hustle in practice.

But e had some stars on the team. Our main star was, Mark Gastineau and there was also Marty Lyons, Freeman McNeil, Wesley Walker, Al Toon, Ken O’Brien. And we had some stars.

Paul: Sure.

John: But I was special teams guy. And not even a dimeback at the time. Just Terry Williams out there, and some other veterans out there.

Paul: Terry Williams from TCU?

John: (laughs) That’s the one. That joker. So, our first game of the season, we played New England. And we got beat. I didn’t even touch the field even on special teams, barely broke a sweat in the warmup that day. That was it. And I got on the plane, I was quiet and drove home. After got home, and I get up early the next morning. I got to the facilities and I went to the special team coach. And I said, “Larry?” He said, “Come on in.” “Yes, sir.” Sat and I said, “Hey, Larry. I just feel bad.” He said, “Well, why do you feel bad?” I said, “Man, we got beat. And I didn’t even touch the field, like I could have helped us to a win.” And he said, “Well, you know, just pay attention to what’s going with special teams.” And he said, “Just pay attention in the meetings.” And then my head coach, Joe Walton, saw me. And he called me up, said, “John?” I thinking, “Oh, my god. He done went to the head coach and told them.”

So, he said, “John, I hear you’re a little frustrated that you’re not playing.” I said, “Yeah.” I told him. He said, “Well, just pay attention.” Two weeks later we were playing and Terry gets hurts and I am playing dimeback against the Houston Oilers.

Paul: Oh, wow.

John: And you are a Baylor guy so you remember Cody Carlson.

And I remember Cody Carlson because he threw a touchdown pass on me my junior year at TCU.

John: I was so nervous, my legs were shaking the first time I had to line up on the field because we in front of 70,000-80,000 people, like, “Oh, my god. I’m scared.” And Cody threw a long pass on me down the from the 30-40-yard line, into the end zone. And I jumped in front of the receiver and got my first interception and my confidence skyrocketed.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

John: And I almost got another interception that game. And we ended up beating Jerry Glanville and Houston 45-3. Yeah. We were fighting that game. We were just, well, whooping up on the Houston Oilers that day. Because I ended up having a good season, a great season as dimeback and nickelback for the Jets my rookie year. And ended up about third on the team in interceptions.

New York Jets defensive back John Booty, center, intercepts Miami Dolphins’ Dan Marino’s pass intended for Jim C. Jensen (11), Sunday, Nov. 12, 1989 at Giants Stadium in East Rutherford, N.J. The Dolphins won, 31-23. (Photo by D. Ross Cameron)

I got the MVP against Pittsburgh Steelers with an interception, fumble recovery, blocked a punt. We beat the Pittsburgh Steelers that game, first time in a long time. And then we ended the season at 8-7 and 1, one or two plays away from going to the playoffs. We lost to Buffalo in overtime 9-6. And Buffalo won the NFC East that year. But had a good season my freshman – freshman, my rookie year.

Paul: So, you’re moving along pretty good. Did you move into starting lineup of the Jets at some point?

John: No, I didn’t. What happened, my second year, I hurt my neck during training camp. So, I’m on injured reserve the first six weeks of the season. And so, I was brought back to the active squad. And Coach Walton was upset with us. And he said, “We’re gonna make a switch in the secondary.” Said, “John, you’re gonna start as strong safety against Dan Marino and the Miami Dolphins.” So, that’s my only start, my second in the league was against the Miami Dolphins. And I picked off Dan Marino, you know?

Paul: Oh, boy. Dang!

John: And that first time I ever played a strong safety, and they liked it. But things happened. I’m still at 180, if that, I think they wanted me heavier. And, you know, I guess sometimes the politics still plays a role. Certain guys you have to play more and whatnot like if they were drafted high. And then my third year in the league was kinda of battle because Bruce Coslet and Pete Carroll came in.

John playing for the Eagles

I had a good season. And politics played a role again. They put me on injured reserve for four weeks and brought me back, it was just a mind-boggling thing. And then in ’91 I was a Plan B free agent. And Richard Kotite was the new head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles. And Bud Carson was my defensive coordinator with the Jets my rookie year.

We had a lot of coaching staff on the Philadelphia Eagles team. So, when I was a Plan B free agent, I could have signed with the Cowboys, the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Houston Oilers liked me and I think the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. But I said I wanted to go with Bud Carson because they gave me a shot, you know?

Paul: Yeah.

John: So, I end up going to Philadelphia and making the team. Started against the Oilers. Got my first sack on a Monday night against the Houston Oilers. We beat the stuffing out of them 13 to 6, I believe. But our defense was like the House of Pain. I think we broke Jenner’s nose, and knocked out another receiver who was hit so many times, it was unbelievable. It was all that. And then that ’91 defense, and this is when I got the second start in my career.

Paul: Right.

John: And I got an interception against Phoenix. But last game of the season in ’91, we’re playing the future Super Bowl champions, Washington Redskins in Philadelphia. And so, the night before, our starting cornerback, left cornerback, he decided not to come to the team meeting that night. It’s with the players only, but you have to check in. So, he didn’t come in. So, I go in the locker room the next day, that’s Sunday before we getting ready to play the Redskins.

“Booty and White” John with the Minister of Defense, Reggie White, RIP

The secondary coach, Peter Colton, said, “John, you’re starting today.” I said, “Okay,” I barely got it out, “Okay.” I saw Bud Carson look at me, grinned and then he walked away. And I went over to Reggie White, “Reggie, I’m starting today.” He said, “Okay. Let’s go to work.” And I told all the guys on defense, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner, Jerome Brown, Wes Hopkins, all those guys, “I’m starting!”

Paul: I can just hear your voice getting louder each time you said it. That was one of the all-time best NFL defenses!

John: Now only person balking about it was Andre Waters because he was like, “Man, you wanna try and mess about with us. We’re the No. 1 ranked defense.” And I just looked at Andre, and said, “Andre, I’m a football player, and I know this stuff. I know this defense.” Yeah. So, I did.

John: And so, I went out against the Redskins. And I shut down Art Monk and Gary Clark. I mean, I should have had two interception against those guys. They threw a flag on me one time, said I pushed Gary down, but I didn’t. But you know, we end up winning the game.

And they kept their starters in for like three quarters. I mean, they kept Sanders in the whole time. They took Mark Rypien out of the game. We were going after him. And we ended up winning the game. And that was my first time starting at CB since winning against Baylor. And I shut down the posse.

Paul: Sure.

John: And so, that off season, this is gonna be my fifth year in the league. Only started a couple of times. I said, “I wanna do something.” I just want to prove I can do it. I’m like they can put me back in nickelback anyway.

And Bud Carson called me and says, “Hey, John, during training camp, I want you to come in and compete for the cornerback spot because you impressed me the way you played against the Washington Redskins.”

Uh-huh? Of course I said, “Yeah.”

And I stopped on the side of I-20 leaving out of Arlington because I was living at Arlington at the time. I just cried. I cried like a baby, you know. I finally got my act together and drove to east Texas and DeBerry. Stayed at my mom’s house. And I was still crying. I said, “Mom, I just gotta make it happen this year.”

I drove to Atlanta and then on to Philadelphia, and we got in the training camp. And Eric Allen was holding out for more money, so I got to be a starter at right corner. And Isaiah got his starting job back. But I got some good experience being a starter at the right corner. And then when Eric came back, they moved me back into the nickelback situation.

And Isaiah was not having a good year, so, they put another guy on that corner, then they put me in the corner. And then I was just like picking off Troy Aikman passes. And I got my three that year, but they’re like wow.

And then Wes Hopkins goes down and Andre Waters goes down, so me and another safety from the Jets, Rich Battle, he and I became safeties, I was the free safety. And he became the strong safety. And we went into the playoffs.

And we did something Buddy Ryan couldn’t do. We beat the New Orleans Saints in the first round. And then we lost to the Dallas Cowboys in the second round. And that hurt me, because I thought we were gonna be in the Super Bowl.

I got a friend now, shes a friend of mine from TCU, she cared for the Cowboys back then. And I talked to her, “You know I’m upset with this.” She started laughing, “Yeah, I know.” And I’m like, “I can’t let it go. You gotta Super Bowl broach. I don’t have nothing. You went to Super Bowl.” She laughs about that all the time.

Paul: Ouch. Sounds like a great friend.

John: I said, “You got not only just one, you got two!” And I’m like, “Yeah. I’m happy for you, but doggone it, I’m mad at you.”

Paul: But not that happy.

John: Not that happy,

So, I became a starter. And probably I didn’t become a starter until my fifth year at two positions, cornerback, and safety.

And then when I was a free agent in 1993, my contract was up the first year of free agency.

And the Phoenix Cardinals called me. Sign me up!

John playing S for the Cardinals

We’ve got a big free agent contract. And they called me in as a safety. And I’m second on the team in interceptions. I got three sacks that year.

That was a piece of game footage I wish I could find. We were playing the Detroit Lions up in Detroit. And Barry Sanders didn’t see me. And I rocked him real good. And he got up and said, “Damn, where you come from?” If I could find that video, man, I’d be so excited about that. So, first year of frees, I was in Phoenix, in ’93.

So then Buddy Ryan came in from the Oilers. And he said I made too much money. And I said, “Well, I’m not gonna participate in your minicamps or your training camp or any of your minicamps if you gonna cut me or trade me.” And he said – well, I talked to him face to face. And he said, “Okay.” And so, I got cut June 1st. Yeah. The Eagles are looking at me to come back. And then the Redskins brought me in a workout. And because Isaiah’s calls, “Hey, listen. We want you. You’ll have to come work out.”

So, I go sign with Dan Reeves and the New York Giants. And I was not a starter, but I earned it, become a starter for them. Because they had the starters already placed, but I was having such a great training camp that I was making it tough for the starters, and they had to get me in the game. So, I was tired of teaming interceptions again, but only signed a one-year deal.

Paul: Yeah.

John: And so, I become a starter with them. And then, that’s right, yeah, after my contract was – and during the off season, they went in a different direction.

Paul: Right.

John: And my contract was up. And the Tampa Bay Buccaneers wanted me. Sam Wyche always wanted me to come play for him, some reason.

Paul: Oh, he… Yeah.

John: And so, I end up signing with the Buccaneers.

Paul: So, tell me about THEE catch!

John: Oh. THEE catch!–

This catch was my first reception of my NFL career

Paul: I love it.

John: It was top of the NFL. One for 48. But, you know, if you have at least one catch, I think I should go in the Hall of Fame for this one, so. And it was from a punter named Reggie Roby.

Paul: I remember him. Oh, yeah.

John: So, I didn’t start that game. And what happened, when the Buccaneers brought me in as a backup, just in case I started to get hurt. Thomas Everett went down that game. And I end up picking off Kerry Collins. And I’m like, man, this is pretty cool. But we had designed the play in practice. I was the wing guy. And I forget the rusher, I forget his name. But he had a knack of blocking punts.

So, he always cut the field hard. If he charge upfield, they say what you do, you just take a step back like you’re getting ready to block, and just run out, like a hook. And we did it in practice. And they’re like… And he said the outback guy going to give you a signal. So, when you’re looking back to get the signal, just acknowledge it, you know, shake your head a little bit then just good to go. I said, “Okay.” He says, “It’s gonna be up to him now.”

And John Stewart was our special teams coach. So, I lined up and I looked back. And he gave me that look. And my eyes just bucked. I almost gave it away because I’m like…. AHHHH!

Paul: It was like, ”please give me hands of glue!”

John: You know! So, I make my step back, the guy charge up, and I run it and catch it, BOOM! Man, I tear up the field, I’m gone. And another guy made a block and pushed the guy downfield. And I figure I’d outrun this other guy. And he was athletic enough to get the angle and catch up and hit me right in the legs. Right at the end.

But I do know this. I got a kickoff return in the NFL. I got a pass reception in the NFL. So, can’t nobody ever tell me I’m not a receiver. And what did I go to try? When I went to junior college, what did I want to be? I wanted to be a wide receiver.

Paul: You made it.

John: I’ve become a wide receiver.

Paul: Yeah.

John: I want to be a wide receiver, and nobody ever – defensive back I see, they should have kept me at wide receiver because my average was off the chain, you know?

Paul: (laughs) Should call the TCU coach back.

John: Yeah, let’s call him back.

Paul: So, I know you end your NFL career, 102 games, 37 starts, 14 picks, 4 sacks, 6 fumble recoveries, 4 fumbles, a blocked punt, a pass reception for 48 and a kickoff return. You picked off two Hall of Fame quarterbacks in Marino and Aikman. You sacked Warren Moon and Steve Young. I mean, the kid that played one year of football until your junior year of high school, the kid that got cut from the JV, the kid that Mom put in a car and made go back to college, but he stuck it out as much as he hated it. That was the kid.

John: He did all that, man.

Paul: Yeah.

John: And I think back. My third year with the Jets, Russell Slaughter was this All Pro, and he would dance at the line of scrimmage and just fake guys out. And Pete Carroll, who taught me a valuable lesson, said, “John, just be patient when you play against him. And when he start doing all that dancing, just punch him right under the chin, right in the throat area.” And I shut down Russ Slaughter by doing that.

Paul: Oh, boy. These are the little things that stick out in your mind.

John: He was like, “You’re trying to make All Pro.” I said I was coached. But for a guy who he thought he – see, even in high school, I rode the offensive bus. I wanted to be on offense. And so, but when I see the ball in the air, I say, “It’s mine.” The ball is mine. It’s like I gotta hit it. And I’m right, so.

And I know there are some guys who are late round picks – or like Everson Walls who was a big hero of mine.

Paul: Cubby! From Hamilton Park!

John: That’s him. And I talked to Cubby, and I talked to Ronnie Lyle. Lyle was a first round. Cubby was a free agent. He’s all this. It all depends on what you system into.

Paul: Yeah.

John: But for me, it took me five years to become a solid star. But I also know that the game of football is all about business, too. When somebody new comes in, they wanna go their own direction. I have no control over it.

Paul: Sure.

John: But at the same time, for a kid from DeBerry, back in Horton Community, who wasn’t supposed to be there. Who woulda thought I was gonna play in 102 National Football League football games and do well against Hall of Famers?

Paul: Isn’t it crazy? It’s cause you got that gear that very few folks have and its not just speed

John: I thank my mom because she said, “You’re gonna be my pro player”

Paul: And five bucks a week. Yeah.

John: Yeah. Five bucks a week.

Paul: To Roscoe.

John: To Roscoe.

Paul: That was a good investment.

John: That was a great investment. And the thing about it, now this, I couldn’t afford the first five years of my leagues, in the league, to buy her what I wanted to buy her. Now when I was a free agent in 1993, and I had signed this big deal, and she had this white Mercury Marquis that she drove and celebrated me in the eighth grade.

Paul: All right. Okay.

John: Yeah. So, when I got the big contract, I pulled up at her house. It was at night. And I said, “Mom, can you and Dad come outside. I think there’s a snake or something.”

She said, “You okay there?” I said, “I’m okay, Mom. Yes. Now come outside.” And my niece, she kinda turned on the security light. Now I’m in country, you know. Nobody else could see it. And she said, “Now who?” I said…. She said, then she says, I think she said something like, “Did you mess up this rental car or something?”

And niece pulls up in this shiny new car. I said, “I don’t want it. You want it?” She said, “Want it?” I said, “Yes. You can have it.” And she was like kinda stunned.

I said, “Well, you and Daddy can have it. Just take me back to Fort Worth tomorrow so I can get back to Philadelphia sometime.” And so, I get up. I go back and lay down. Get up the next morning. The rental car is gone!

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: She and Daddy had taken the rental car and just drove all over the place. And she was like, “Look what my baby just bought me.” Well, I bought her the biggest Fleetwood Cadillac. It was white with a blue top.

Paul: Oh, no.

John: And I said, “Momma, this is your car. You love the church” And I know, in fact, I said, “I know what you gonna do with it. I know you gonna put some fishing poles in it, out of it, and go fishing.” And that’s what she would do. Put fishing poles and go fish. So, from not wanna be go fishing with it, “Hey, Momma, here’s you a car. You go fishing all you want!”

I don’t care if I’m going through NFL hell, I can think about those moments right there. Make it all worthwhile.

Paul: Well, you know something. That’s how I was gonna end this was – and I you kinda like segued into it here. I know we talked about this earlier, to me, of everything you talked about today, there’s really only one thing that matters, and that’s the family. Tell me about your daughters.

John: My oldest daughter, she’s from the young lady I was dating in college, that didn’t work out. But my baby has her master’s degree in healthcare administrations. She is one of the trainers at a big high school in Arlington. Yeah, and she’s teaching. She went to UNT, and then she went to University of Texas Arlington. So, she got her master’s at University of Texas Arlington. So, she’s 29 now. And she’s grown up. She’s doing her own thing. She’s saving some money, wise, and staying with her mom in Grand Prairie.

And my youngest daughter lives here with her mom. Me and her mom got married, but we divorced in 2005. But I didn’t wanna leave her here in D.C. by herself, because all my family’s in Texas. I wanna stay and be with her. And she has her degree in theatre and psychology from Georgetown University.

Paul: Wow.

John: Yeah. So, we got some smart girls, man.

Paul: Yeah. That’s a strong mix, too; theatre and psychology. Wow.

John: Yeah. She wants to be an actress. Yeah. So, she’s 25 and, I mean, we try to get her – every connection I might have, trying to get to become an actress.

Paul: Are you still doing TV, Sports Talk, and stuff?

John: Well, yes. Of course right now everything is shutdown due to the virus

Paul: Right.

John: And we do shows, but I don’t do it as often. At one point, I was a regular. Or I call them and say, “Listen. I’ve been working with the Redskins. We doing this. Can we come on the air?” And then when they need, well, like when we wanna cover something like the Combine, anything they need an NFL player for.

Paul: I see.

John Booty, hard at work for ABC 7

John: During the draft, or during the regular seasons, sometimes here lately, at one point, they had me working with ABC7. So, ESPN’s absence of Monday Night game here, gonna have me do a satellite feed.

Paul: So, are you still working with that gridiron legacy youth football clinic?

John: That’s Gary Clark Incorporated now. We still doing that. But every game, like again, everything is shut down now because we can’t take the kids out. And what’s great with Gary Clark Incorporated, what we do do, we work with real-estate agents, and then we try to market them.

And we would have access of taking some of our bigger people, our most dedicated folks. We’ll take a train ride up to New York and have a meeting at the NFL league office.

Paul: Sure.

John: Yeah. And then they get a kick out of sitting around that big old thing that you tell – share, bullet roll, with the commissioner and all of them, doing their orders and sit. And we do that. And I lend my support to domestic violence, Walter “Sweet” Payton Foundations. And mental health issues, I work with them.

I’ve been involved in the Congressional Game since 2005. And we do it every two years, but now we’re doing it every year. This year kinda has got an asterisk. We really don’t know if we gonna have it.

Paul: Yeah.

John: We have members of Congress team up with some pro football players. Herschel Walker had played in it, and Gary Clark, myself, and Ken Harvey. But members of Congress take on the young guns

Paul: I’m trying to envision some of these people that are in Congress. And if you don’t like a bill they did, then somebody comes and pulverizing them.

John: (laughs) I know. That’s one of the time where I gotta say, “Okay, this is touch football!”

Then they get ‘touched’ a little bit harder.

Paul: I remember how touch football went. Touch football gave probably more bloody noses than real tackle football ever did.

John: I know what you mean!

Paul: Oh, my god.

John: Oh. This – but they love it though. But they wouldn’t bring – I didn’t understand this. What they really love. I had a friend, I remember seeing this. He was so excited that he had to go into the huddles and tell Herschel Walker to come out.

Paul: Oh.

John: Just going in the huddle, and tell Herschel coming out of the game. So, we’re talking Jerry Rice to come and play, and John Randall, and Herschel Walker playing this year. So, I’m gonna try to get in contact with Roger Staubach because we have a member of Congress, he was in the military.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

John: Now, Roger’s in his 70s or 80s.

Paul: Yeah. Roger’s tough though. He’ll probably beat the crap out of them anyway.

John: (Laughs) “Touch” football…

So, we hope to get it going again at some points, it benefits the Capitol Police Memorial Fund and mostly the kids.

Paul: Oh, good. Yeah.

John: So, we try to stay busy. I try to stay busy. And keep up with the Washington Redskins.

Paul: So sorry about that! GO COWBOYS!

John: Steven Jones now, we communicate, emails and stuff and I see him occasionally.

Paul: Oh, yeah?

John: He always leave me field passes.

Paul: Tell him to leave you one more as you just got a new com-padre!

John, I just looked at the clock. We’ve been talking for nearly three hours, this is such a fantastic story. BTW – I think the moral of the John Fitzgerald Booty story is: “Listen to Mom, she knows best!”

John: Yes she does! And thank you.

Paul: I got one quick question for you. When you’re in Philly, did you ever run across Beasley Reece?

John: Oh yes.

Paul: We were in Boy Scouts together back in Waco. That’s a long time ago. We went up to Idaho for the National Jamboree in 1969. I had a blast with Beasley on there, he was such a goofball. We watched the moon landing out in these big screen theaters like you would see in a drive-in.

John: Yeah. Beasley Reece. I haven’t heard that name in a while.

BTW, before you take off. When I was playing for the Eagles, we came down to Dallas. I brought a bunch of Eagle gear. And we went to see my Aunt who lived there. She says, “I cannot believe I have Philadelphia Eagles gear in my house!”

Paul: Sacrilegious.

John: (laughs) But anyway, I felt it. But things like that. And when I go back every year, the Carthage Bulldogs been winning, winning, winning, winning. And Coach Surratt tapped me on the sideline at every state championship. When I go home, I go speak to the guys. I love Texas high school football!

Paul: And there cannot be a better way to end this interview. Thank you my brother.

John: No – thank you!

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The post JOHN FITZGERALD BOOTY PART 2 first appeared on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

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]]> 5462 JOHN FITZGERALD BOOTY https://meminc.org/johnbooty-2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=johnbooty-2 Sun, 21 Jun 2020 03:26:54 +0000 https://memoriesoftexasfootball.org/?p=54 Oh, I wanted to be a Carthage Bulldog soooo bad. And I remember hearing about my brother playing for Carthage. From first grade on; You’re seeing that Carthage football team, I wanna be one of those guys, wear that red uniform. I said, “I can’t wait until its my turn.

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John Fitzgerald Booty, Part 1

by Paul Heckmann

Executive Director, Memories Incorporated, a 501c3 Non-Profit

Paul Heckmann: Good afternoon John!

John Booty: Hey, Paul. How are you?

Paul: Doing well. How about yourself?

John: Just fine.

Paul: I know we have a lot to discuss so let’s dig right in. Tell me all about the city of your birth, DeBerry, Texas

With my sisters Ella, Tenia and Aquanda. I believe age 5

John: Well, DeBerry, it’s a little community. We got mail system through DeBerry, essentially North Carthage, in Panola County. I grew up in a place called Horton Community. I guess it was incorporated a long time ago, that was a routing system of the mail and all that.

So, I’m a country boy! Yeah.

Paul: Were you big into hunting and fishing?

John: Well, it’s funny. My dad would fish and hunt. My brothers would fish and hunt. My mom fished. But, me, I was not big into either one. My mom would take me fishing with her. She was out at a pond and not catching anything. And I’m like that’s the worst thing I could do, so I just lost the interest in going fishing, unless I’m catching something. And my fear of snakes, well, I wasn’t fond of them either.

We lived close to Sabine River, so we didn’t cross the river, we don’t wanna get close. I remember I heard they had alligators in there.

Paul: So, I have a question for you there. Your middle name is Fitzgerald. Is that a family name or did they like the President?

John: Well, they’re fond of JFK.

Paul: What did your parents do for work?

John in First Grade

John: My mom, she worked at a cleaners before I started school. And then after my first grade, she became a school bus driver.

She drove a bus until I was a sophomore, I believe.

And my dad was a construction worker. He was a foreman for a construction company. And he was also a preacher.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: Yes, you know what I mean. It was a small church, nothing like what we have today. I think my grandmother was a, she was a secretary of a church, so early on we were in church all the time. At least it felt that way

Well, looking back, we just did Sunday. But those preachers, they get a long winded, you know.

Paul: And you’re, “Come on dad, I gotta get to football.”

John: Get to football. Get some food. You’re hungry, you know?

Paul: So, brothers and sisters. Tell me!

John: I have three brothers, five sisters.

Paul: Oh, wow.

John: Well, there was two that’s passed away. There would have been 11 of us, but it’s 9. There were two that passed away. One was a accidental gunshot when he was young, like 8 or 9 years old.

Paul: Oh, no. I’m sorry.

John: Yeah. He was at home and playing around, and some kinda weird accident, he shot himself in the head. And my older brother was there with him. And I had a sister who was older than my older brother, my oldest brother now. She passed away of a brain tumor, I think. I wish I could understand the parents. They didn’t talk much about it, my other sister.

So, I have a older brother, Andrew, who is like 70 years old now, so. He lives in Houston. And I have a sister named Wanda. And she’s the second oldest. I have a brother named Jodell who was 10 years older than I. He was my hero. He was a football player and all that stuff. But, yeah, I think he only played for his sophomore and junior year, or something like that.

My brother, Laneal and then Margaret and Aquanda. And Ella who passed away about three years ago, three or four years ago, of cancer. And my youngest is named Tenia. She lives in Fort Worth.

Paul: So, did you guys ever move into the big city of Carthage?

John: No. We were always living in the Horton Community way out in the country. Always out in the country.

We were country people. Mom drove the bus, and the bus route come through there. And we stayed there. We moved from a highway, from off the highway. It was called Old 59 back then because they were building 59 fairway. That turned out to be a pretty busy highway, eventually we moved to another place off the beaten path. Not far off the main road. But if anybody wanted to come see me or my family, it was definitely a destination.

Only people that I saw were those Portland gas guys going back to check those rigs back there. Or oil tankers and owner of the land that’s past my mom’s house. And the pond, going to feed his cattle. But it was a destination. You had to wanna come see us!

Paul: Ha!

So, when did you find out you had an interest sports?

John: When did I find out? Good question. Well, I tell you what, I grew up in the 70s. I think when I was 3 or 4 or 5 years old, we loooooved the Dallas Cowboys. And my mom, well, she is real active. I was scared little runt. I almost passed away about 4 years old.

Paul: What happened that nearly killed you?

John: Yeah. I think it was around 3 or 4. My older brother, Joe Dell, who was playing – he liked to play tough with me. All the kids in the neighborhood wanted to be tough, so he was playing around with me and they say I slipped into a seizure.

Paul: Oh, wow.

John: And now my mom and dad were at work. Back then we didn’t have a phone. So we had to go down to the corner store and have the owner of the store take me to the hospital. So, they said I was at hospital for several days. And then said it was a seizure I had.

Paul: Wow.

John: And they sent me home. And they sent me home either to get out of it or to pass away at home, I guess.

Paul: Holy cow. Did they find out what caused it?

John: They didn’t. I mean, it’s so funny, as a kid growing up, other kids would tease me for having a seizure. And I kinda ignored it So, then they didn’t talk much about it, so I didn’t much about it. My mom didn’t talk much about it. And my dad didn’t talk much about it.

All I know is when I got home, several days passed and whatnot, my sister said I just got up and walked over to her like a mummy because I was stiff as I had been laying in one spot all the time.

She said I said I was hungry, that’s it, “I’m hungry.” And I ate and ate and ate.

Paul: Darn right you’re hungry. You hadn’t eaten in 11 days.

John: And so, after that, I just became this little kid who looked to pretend that he was Superman and run around the house and play on Sundays when football came. And everybody loved the Dallas Cowboys. I think my older brother liked the Houston Oilers, but everybody else in the house loved the Dallas Cowboys. And then for except for me, there were about I’ll say maybe 20, 30 little boys my age. So, we had a good group of kids,

Everybody loved the Cowboys back then. We had Tom Landry and had the church, God, and Tom Landry on Sundays. We all got the blues in the off-season, like man, when the Cowboys gonna play again?

And so, when I was 6 years old, I guess it would have been in ’70, ’71. My mom bought me a Dallas Cowboy’s uniform.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: She said, “You gonna my pro football player.”

Paul: Little did she know.

John: Ha! Well, I guess she knew because she would tell everybody else, “He’s gonna be my pro football player.”

They would all looked and laugh at her because I was one of the littlest ones in the bunch. And getting over a sickness too, and then playing around with everybody hooting like, “You too little. You too little. You too little.”

And my sister told me, “I remember one of the bigger guys would tease you, and you were on the porch. He kept teasing you about you wearing that Dallas Cowboy’s uniform everywhere.”

And she said, I don’t remember this, but she said I jumped off the porch and started wailing on him. And he just says “Dude.” And then I said, “Hey, cousin, do you all wanna play football now?”

Paul: Oh, my gosh.

John: I wished I’d had that uniform with us. That was a good keepsake. But I didn’t know. I’m just a little kid.

Paul: Yeah. You wore it out.

John: Yeah. I wore it out. I wear it even when I had my Sunday go to church shoes on!

Paul: Your mom probably repaired it probably a dozen times I bet.

John: Yes. And it get worn out, but I didn’t care

Paul: Tell me about organized football. I know you said you tried it in eighth grade.

John: I didn’t start playing organized football until the eighth grade. We had first period athletics in the seventh grade where we would go and start training in the first period. That was some of the roughest. It was oh, that coach, Billy Joe Freeman, I remember his name. Boy, he was tough. Early in the morning during the fall in the summertime, the grass is eating you up then you go take a shower before your second period class. But, that was rough though.

But yeah, that’s our first time learning the game. But first time playing organized football was in the eighth grade.

Paul: When did your school start two-a-days?

John in the 8th Grade

John: Well, in the eighth grade, we didn’t go to two-a-day practice. We started the first day of school And it’s hot, man, at 3:00 in the afternoon.

And I know you know.

Paul That I do.

John: All the weeks of practice and stuff, and they made a choice to make teams.

Paul: Sure.

John: And they put down the B Team. I’m like, “Man.” My best friend who I grew up in Horton Community in DeBerry with, he’s over here, and he only 18, he’s only 18. But I know I’m just as good or better athlete than he was, you know?

Paul: True dat.

John: Yeah. But I was on the B Team. And I wasn’t even a starter at the time. And since I’m writing a book, I was able to get in contact with my B Team coach. “I had drawn a position on defense because you just had a knack for the ball. You were small, undersized, but you had a knack to get to the football.”

Paul: Right.

John: You’ll knock somebody out to the get there, you’re making a sure tackle. That’s when I started to learn to love the Carthage Bulldogs.

Paul: Yea! Small town football, you live and breathe it.

John: Oh, I wanted to be a Carthage Bulldog soooo bad. And I remember hearing about my brother playing for Carthage.

From first grade on; You’re seeing that Carthage football team, I wanna be one of those guys, wear that red uniform. I said, “I can’t wait until its my turn.”

Paul: I know exactly what you’re talking about.

John: Like the Friday pep rallies, that Friday spirit. Hardly watched the games growing up, but, man, it was something else. So, when I got in the eighth grade, I was a Bullpup at Turner Junior High

Turner Junior High Bullpups, John is #81 front row

Paul: Was Turner inside Carthage?

John: Turner was a part of Carthage Independent School District.

Paul: Okay.

John: Turner was an all-black school. Then they were integrated and became the junior high. They won some championships back in the ‘60s and whatnot.

That’s in Carthage. And so, and one day the head coach, Coach Frye, saw me throwing a football around. And he called me over, said, “John, would you like to play quarterback?”

Me? “Yeah. I’d like to be quarterback.”

Paul: Everybody wants to be quarterback.

John: He’s like, “Come on. You got the little action pass for me. And the hand off.” We were in the Veer back then, so we didn’t throw much.

Paul: Okay.

John: And they had the quarterback sneak. “You know, John just keep it and run them.”

Paul: Yep!

John: And so, I was getting lots of reps, I wasn’t even the starter. I eventually became a starter. So, when I got in the game, all that stuck in my mind was that I was playing quarterback. I was upset because I wasn’t on the A Team, but I got a lot of playing time.

And, in fact, that soothed me right there. I saw that I was a pretty good athlete as a quarterback. I wanted to challenge when I made it to ninth grade to be challenged for starting quarterback job in the ninth grade.

Paul: Did you play in ninth grade?

John: What happened, I was practicing. I was so dumb though, I even told the principal, vice principal of the high school, “I’m gonna play. I’m try out for the quarterback.” And he’s like, “Go for it.” And the guys who were on the A Team will get the first look anyway.

So, the first day of practice, I’m excited about it. But, man, I tell you what.

And I’m saying this to tell you just to give you a little insight. Back in the eighth grade, I got my enthusiasm from my mom. Because I remember the game. In the eighth grade, we’re gonna play a Thursday night game but it got rained out, so we played on a Saturday.

So, my mom had this big, white Mercury Marquis. And we had to take the bus from Turner to go to the town square of Carthage, over to the high school. And so, as we’re driving, we’re on a bus, you know, being enthusiastic and all that.

And there was – kept hearing this person blowing their horn, and say, “Let’s go Bullpups. Let’s go Bullpups.” And one guy said, “Man, who was that?” And I looked around, and it was my mom. I said, “Man, well, she’s excited.” That make me feel good. So, kinda like – but that’s I’m like I was embarrassed and I got excited. So, in the ninth grade, the first day of practice, we were going at it. And before practice, these coaches had us doing these agility drills. Oh, my goodness. Up-downs, climb the ladder, front, back, all that jive.

Paul: Oh, up-downs. I shudder when I hear of those!

John: So, and then we started stretching. And I’m holding this guy leg, and I could hear bells ringing in my ears, everything started getting dim. And as we were stretching, the bus was going through to pick up the kids. And I remember mom’s bus come through. I remember her number. And she got this big, beautiful smile. She just blew the horn. And I looked. And she could tell. She could tell who I was. I just looked up and smiled. And I got my energy back just like that.

I still feel like like I was about to pass out. And I saw her and like I just like got my energy back. So, I practice. We practiced that week. Then they have a game.

The varsity had a scrimmage game that week, so. And then we practiced another week. That’s the first day of school. And we didn’t have a game. The varsity had their game. And we all got mad at the head coach because he made us practice. And we wanted to go to the pep rally, but he said, “No, you gonna practice.” So, the following Thursday it was time to for our first game. And I’m going. Excited the whole day, that Thursday.

And me and another guy had missed practice once because our ankles are hurting but we practiced up getting ready for the game. So, I get to the locker room. And head coach said, “John, you’re not gonna go on this trip.” I’m like, “Sir?” He said, “No, you’re not gonna go on this trip.” And I just got quiet.

And then I went up to my friend who was packing his bag that could get on the bus. And I said, “You going on the trip?” He said, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Wow.”

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: And so, I’m standing outside the bus watching my team on the bus. And two of my teammates had let the window down and teased me. And that hurt almost worse, not going, not the coach told me. I’m like a little puppy dog standing outside the bus, and they gone, driving off. And then the regular bus just come through to take – pick up everybody else.

And my mom picked us up. And I got on the bus. And she noticed I was real quiet. And she had this big mirror where she checked the students. She kept looking back at me.

So, we finally got home. And after dinner that night, I just said, “Mom, I’m gonna quit football.” And she just looked at me.

And the next day, that Friday, I went to the head coach, said, “Listen, I’m gonna quit football.” He said, “Well,” he didn’t give me any reaction, he just said, “Okay. Go to the office and get into PE.”.

Paul: Oh man, that hurts.

1982 Bi-District Champs

John: So, I went and got my schedule changed and joined PE. PE teacher said, “Why you not playing football?” Because I’ll be the first one getting picked when we had the football games going on in PE. And I was the best athlete in PE. And he was like, “You need to play football.” And I said, “Yeah. Whatever.” So, at first the team didn’t do too well. I’m excited about that. But those were my friend out there too.

Yeah. And so, the spring semester, they said, you can join the athletics again if you want. And if you join athletics, you can run track. And then you can get into football, so I ran track.

And then you can try to impress the JV coaches because you’re gonna be a sophomore. And we went through the training and whatnot. And I was really going hard, and I’m back in with my classmates, my teammates from freshman year. I mean, we were freshmen. And we’re working out with the JV.

And I was doing drills, the head coach was like, “Wow, who is this kid? Where’d he come from? Where have you been?” And he would have me demonstrate the drills. “This kid’s just a good athlete. Where have you been? How come you didn’t play football last year?” And all that jazz. I was gung ho. I mean, like man, we gonna conquer JV.

And that summer, I worked on a farm, a ranch with my friend, my cousin. And we knew high schoolers at Carthage and got word that the head coach of the JV had left to go work in the oil fields. And that mean’s new JV coaches coming in.

So I am pumped, ready to go, you know? And they would send us things like when two-a-days days were gonna start and when I need you to appear for my physical and all that.

Paul: Right.

John: But before that happened, I allowed my cousin, who was my ride back then, to talk me out of playing football.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: He’s like “Dude, man. We gotta practice against the varsity.”

I said, “Man, aren’t we tough people? We are tough. Man, we can go against the varsity. What’s the matter with you.? We gonna be Carthage Bulldogs now. We gonna be on the JV. We can go wrestle. Let’s make us tough. We beat each other up in the country. We can play ball. We can go against these other guys. We’re just as tough as they are.”

But still, I’m undecided. He is undecided.

So, I didn’t even respond to any of the letters. And I didn’t even report to two-a-days days. And I was in counseling before school start. I was in the counselor’s office, got into PE. And the first day of class, I walk into the PE class. The PE teacher, he looks at me like, “John Booty, why are you in my class? Why are you not playing football?”

Paul: Was this the same guy as the year before?

John: Yep, it’s the same guy. Coach Max.

Yeah. And so, that fall semester, I was like his teacher’s pet. “Hey, John, can you teach them how to do this? Can you do this?” He said, “I’m gonna tell these coaches about you. You need to be playing football.” But I still thought my football career was over.

And two of my classmates, a guy by the name of Roscoe Tatum, who ended up in the TCU Hall of Fame as a track star. He was our all-state running back. He was a sophomore. And a guy named Ricky Roughly who went to TCU right out of high school, another sophomore.

They were on the varsity. So, we had the sense to go watch them play. And first game of the season they played Marshall, got the stuffings beat out of them. And then they were on a winning streak. And they end up going 8 and 2 that semester, that fall semester.

And so, the last game of the season, and this is where it all started, I guess, where it has to be, what is. Last game of the season, we are all fans, and Carthage beat Henderson.

Paul: All right!

John: And remember back in 1981. Back then, only one team can represent the district in the playoff game.

Paul: Oh, yeah. That’s right.

John: Yeah. So, we had a three-way tie. We won the first flip, but then we went from a high-high to a low-low. I remember the public address announcement they did for the coin flip, “Well, Carthage won’t be going to the playoffs.”

Paul: Oh, boy. The wind went out of your sails.

John: Man. It hurt me so much. We were all just frustrated, frustrated, frustrated. My mom would have been not proud of my language that night. And I don’t cuss. And I’m using some bad language that night. And so, me and my friend, Calvin, we went on to the locker room at the new school and start banging on the lockers in frustration.

And the head coach started hearing this. I don’t know if you heard of Sleepy Reynolds. He was the head coach of our Carthage High School. He was concerned and came in and told us to stop that. Now he was walking back to his office, said, “Who are you guy? Who are you?”

Well, I got nervous because we were not supposed to be in here. But, and my buddy Ricky Roughly, said, “They come to get me, coach.”

And he just looked at us, and walked away. And that was the night I was so upset. I was Friday the 13th, 1981. And I know I have to write a book!.

And over the weekend, I told my mom, “Mom, I wanna play football again.” And she just looked at me and smiled. That’s all it took, you know, she didn’t say a word.

And then on that Monday, I was in class. Well, I told a friend mine, said, “I wanna play football again.” And he said, “You should.”But I don’t know how, but when I got to last period, was PE, and that was athletics, I got to the PE class, my PE teacher said, “John, the head coach is inviting PE students to join athletics.”

Paul: The writing was on the wall.

John: Yep.

“You need to go” Coach said, “They getting ready to have a meeting. Go in there and join athletics.” And there was Coach Reynolds. I was intimidated by him because he was the head varsity coach. He had all the PE teachers, students to introduce ourselves. And then he got to me he said, “Introduce yourself John Booty,” and the guys all saw me, because my teammates who were not playing basketball and classmates, they were in there, laughing like oh, and thinking ‘he’s gonna play football again’.

And then the head coach asked me, said, ‘Are you related to a kid by name of Gerald Booty?’ I kinda mumbled, “Probably.”

And I was nervous. He said, “Well, if you have some athletic ability like him, you may be about something.”

So I’m totally embarrassed, still a kinda shy little sophomore kid, being asked the question by the head coach.

And after an little bitty squat, and a grunt, and I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s shook me, he really did. “Yeah. I think so.” That’s all I got out, I was sooo intimidated by Coach Reynolds.

Paul: Was Gerald your brother?

John: No. Cousin used to hear about him all the time. He didn’t make his mark until his senior year, but I know he played his junior year. He used to return punts and kickoffs

So, getting back to it, on that day I said, “I gotta make a mark.”

And so, my sophomore year, I got to do an off-season workout program. I will hustle and hustle and hustle, outwork everybody. And we go out on the track field and run. And then I run to the weight room.

And one day the coach saw me in there, and he said, “Well, who is this?” Coach Reynolds laughs, ‘Oh coach, he said, that’s John Booty.”

He said, “Oh, yeah. Okay.” He said, “Well, they’re running, hustling. We may be about something.” That made me feel good.

And then spring comes and track season, and I ran track because I wanted to be ready for off-season football.

Paul: Sure.

John: But off-season football came around. Everybody is working out together pretty much. And the JV coach told the head coach, “I think I found you a receiver.” And said, “Okay.” He said, “John you know that drill where you turn around and throw your ball and turn around a catch it?” Well, I was nervous when he told me. And I did it. And I dropped it. “Coach, he threw it so fast.” You know, kids back then would make excuses.

Paul: Oh yea, that I remember. It was like, who could tell the biggest whopper and get away with it!

John: You got it.

Anyway, I caught Coach Reynold’s attention during the off-season football. Everybody was excited because we knew we had a good team coming back and we wanted revenge!

My initial goal to make the varsity and so I can help my team not rely on a coin flip.

Yeah. So, over the summer, I worked construction with my dad. And also my mom had Roscoe, who was our neighbor in Horton Community, DeBerry, come over. And I didn’t know she was doing that. He drove a green Pinto. And she said, “Roscoe, he wants to play football again. And I wanna make sure he’s okay.” And she said, “I’ll pay you $5.00 a week for gas.”

10th Grade 11-13-1981 is the night I decided to play Football again.

Paul: Oh dude, that is one cool Mom!

John: Yes she was. She loved the game. Yeah, she really loved that I loved the game too. She says, ‘he’s gonna be my pro’. But she wasn’t gonna let me quit again.

So, I’m going to two-a-days.

Because coach came and worked you. I was in the locker room before two-a-days days started, and the head coach saw me again. Said, “Who is that?” Secondary coach said, “That’s John Booty, Coach. He’s getting ready for the run.”

So, he got a stopwatch and watched as I ran the mile. And I really didn’t wanna run the mile. But I did it because he said I gotta do it. So, made me look good in front of the head coach.

So, two-a-days days go and we going and going, I’m still a little skinny runt. And the head coach says he needs some scout team players for the scout team running back.

Paul: Okay.

John: And I’m like, “Man, I’m a receiver. I’m not a running back and I’m a defensive back.” And he would call on me to be his running back and for the scout team. The first couple of times I got tagged real good. I said well, then I’m gonna teach you to let these guys that you can’t hit what you can’t catch.

Paul: Love it!

John: I made them better on defense because I didn’t wanna get hit. And when I was on defense as a defensive back, whenever we did throw the ball, I was pretty much knocking the passes down and whatnot. I was a good practice player. And, but my goal was to make the varsity because as a junior they’ll put you down on JV if you don’t have that experience.

Paul: I know that feeling.

John: And so, our last scrimmage game before the week’s football game, we were scrimmaging, I was a reserve receiver, and defensive back, cornerback.

And me and second string quarterback got in the game. And he say, “Well, I want you to throw a bomb.” Give me a fly route. And I faked the cornerback out and was just about to score. It was a scrimmage, of course. And I was so excited, I slowed down a little bit and the CB tackled me before I got in.

Paul: Oh, boy.

11th Grade, I made the varsity

John: But it was fun. We were scrimmaging Center High School. And on our way back to Carthage, I heard the head coach say, “Well, that kid, John Booty, made a big catch today.” This was on a Friday

And over the weekend. And then Monday came around before the week before the first game. And head coach called me to his office. Said, “John, come to my office.” I said, “Oh, my god.” And I go to Coach Reynolds’ office. He was like, “Hey, we like what you’re doing on the scout team. And we like what you do as a reserve. You made the varsity. And, but if we think you need some experience, we gonna drop you down to JV.” Well, when he said, “You made the varsity,” I didn’t hear much after that.

Paul: Right.

John: I’m like, you can forget that other stuff. I’m not going down to JV. And so, you’re on the reserve, but you made the varsity. And we had some studs on the offense at Carthage. But I’m on the varsity, so who cares… And so, no football experience my first two years in high school but when I got in the game, though, at the two-minute drill I was good at.

And when I got to game, the coach, “Hey John, you need to run this route here.” I’ll run it. Get the big catch. Or when they first gonna start us, or blowing our team out, they put the second team in. I got game. I was playing the game. And that’s what I thought. Because I got a interception and a touchdown in one game.

Paul: So, who’re you playing against?

John: I wanna say it was Athens. I think we got 50 to 0, I think it was.

Paul: Oh. So, who all was in your district back then?

John: Oh. They called the district the beast. We had Kilgore, Henderson, Jacksonville, Palestine, Athens.

Paul: Okay. That’s some tough football.

John: Yeah, that’s some tough football back then. And the deal is we made it to the playoffs, no coin flip.

And we beat Atlanta in Longview in bi-district. And then we played Corsicana in 1982 in Longview, in Lobo Stadium. And it was a rainy, cool night that night. And we’d thrown the ball 11 times, and they got about six picks. And they beat us 32 to 0.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: These guys were so big, and I thought they were grown men I thought we were against. And Corsicana. I’m like, “Man, look at these guys.” At the end of the game, the secondary coach came to me and this other guy named Scott. This in the fourth quarter, late. He said, “Well, guess what, guys.” He said, “John, you and Scott, you all go in the game the next series.” I looked at him like, “Huh? What we gonna do?”

Then we got in the game. And nobody scored on us. And it was so cold, we couldn’t wait to get off that field. But it was a weird feeling coming off that field, getting beat 32 to 0.

And I think all the juniors on that team. I know I thought about this, I’m like, “I think we gonna beat this team again someday.”

Paul: Oh, man.

John: And it was just in my mind. “That team beat us. Sometime we may get them back. I don’t know or when….”

Paul: You can probably still feel that cold though can’t you?

John: Oh, yeah. I can still feel it.

I just said to one of the guys, “Man, they’ve got some big and ugliest people under his helmet. Look at that dude, man. These guys are huge.” And they beat the stuffings out of us

Paul: Yeah.

John: But we were ready to fight. But we didn’t wanna start any trouble. I knew I wasn’t gonna start the trouble. And, but you know, we had good fan support from Carthage.

Paul: So, here comes your senior year…

John: My senior year. I’m more excited than ever. I’m gonna be a starter. I already paid my dues. Not that I was a senior seniority. It’s just I had proved to the coach that I was a good athlete. They wanted me to take basketball. I said, “No, I don’t wanna play basketball. I’m getting in off-season conditioning. And I’m gonna run track because I had something to prove in track. First thing is you have to prove it.”

Off season, Coach is like, “Man, John you’re talented.” Going through the drills and whatnot. So, two-a-days days come around and Roscoe was my ride again. And two-a-days days come around. And before the first game of the season, and like on a Monday, I tweaked my dad-gum groin.

Paul: Oh no!

John: I’m like, “Oh, god.” And my backup was a good friend of mine. And said, “Brian, you’re gonna start this weekend at defensive back. I had to go early in the morning before school when I got off the bus, go to the locker room, get in the training room. Sit down, cold tub of ice. Couldn’t get in the whole day.

So, the first game, we go to Atlanta. And I’m feeling pretty good, but they didn’t wanna chance it. I said, “Coach, I can go.” And, “No.” But during the warmups, I’m running full speed. And I only played wide receiver because back then we were only ran the veer, so all I was doing was taking in the plays, in and out.

You know, two of your star receivers, two of your main athletes go to college and become – and stars, and star in college pretty much. But so, first game, we beat Atlanta. Second game, I forget who we played. We beat them. And then the third game, we played against Daingerfield. And Daingerfield had set that school record, 16 and 0, and only had eight points scored against them.

Paul: I remember that.

John: Our defense shut them down to really three points. And it’s so funny. Our offense opened up this big hole, and our running back ran through it scott-free to score, and he fumbled.

Paul: Oh, no.

John: And I saw him fumble. I’m running to get the ball, and I jumped at it, and miss it. And then the defensive back them gets on top of it

Paul: Like a comedy of errors.

John: Yeah. And they marched down the field and scored. They ate up like seven minutes of the last minutes of the fourth quarter.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: They scored and went up 10-3. And we tried to – we tried to make another comeback. And the quarterback threw in an interception that killed it, that killed the fourth. So, we end up losing 10-6 to Daingerfield. But Daingerfield had just unbelievable team. They went to state. And then we got back on a winning track.

We lost a heart breaker, 14-7 to Henderson. And then we played Jacksonville. Jacksonville had our number for three years running. But they made a mistake. I got my first interception against Mt. Pleasant. So, I got my second interception against Jacksonville. So, what happened, before the game, Jacksonville was sitting on the ground in front of our locker room as we were coming out.

And they were chanting, “Kick that ass. What we gonna do?” And a lot of our players are getting ready to go say something to coaches. Just keep walking, guys. They were like, “We got these guys’ number.” We done whupped them three years in a row. They played the old coming to the Tomato Bowl and do beat us. So, they had that chant. When we hit the field, we exploded like an atomic bomb. And that was that.

And I think the third play of the game, we were defense first, third play of the game they went at me. And I almost jumped over this receiver’s head. Really jumped over his butt. You can’t see his behind because my butt is like over his head. Got an interception. And we ended up beating them 30, I think 30 to 8, or something like that, in Jacksonville. So, we were excited about that and everything. And at the end of the game, well, we start chanting. We didn’t chant what they chant. But we had our own little chant, (laughs)

And then the last game of the season was against Kilgore. And Kilgore tried to test me. The last game of the season was at home. And I picked off two passes against them, so I end up leading the entire team, our team and the district in interceptions. And then we made the playoffs, so. And then we played in along at Marshall. We played Atlanta. I got a interception against Atlanta. So, we ended up winning that game. And then we played in Mesquite. And Coach Reynolds said, “Well, our next opponent is Corsicana….”

1983 Carthage HS Bulldogs… so close

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: Oh-oh-oh-oh, my god. We got, for something, we got to licking our chops. Man, we were like… I mean, we would drive on a Tuesday. Get on the bus Tuesday morning, drive to Mesquite, work out for about an hour, have some late lunch, so drive back to Carthage. That’s how we did it. And that weather that night, I think it was Friday night, that weather was bad. Yeah. We must have stayed in Mesquite at Poteet stadium.

And I remember coming down the stairs, and we were coming down, and it was a rainy, cold, wet, icy. And we had our fans there. And that game was like about bigger than ever, probably uglier. But we would have some enthusiasm when we hit the field. And they kicked off to us. They kicked it away from our star running back because he was a world-class sprinter. And he kicked it to me! Ball came at me, the ball went right through my hands. But we got it anyway

I went, “Dang, John you go get that thing.” And so, we drive down the field and score. And we kick off to them. They drive down the field and score on us. They kick off to us again. The ball go through my hands, through my hands again! I went, “Lord have mercy. Can you do something, man?” It kinda made me nervous though. But we got the ball back. We go the ball. We drove down the field and scored.

I’m like, “Man, this is pretty cool.” Our team was passing to deep offense. We kick off to them, and they drive down the field and score.

Paul: Oh, boy.

John: And they missed the extra point. So, it’s 14-13. So, while I’m walking on the field, I’m a little nervous now by your own juice. They don’t kick a reason why I score, run back.

Paul: Got too. No way you drop the rock 3 times in a row.

John: Yeah. So, they kick it to me. They come at me. And what a lucky bounce. The thing just popped right in my hands. So, I’m standing there. It’s like, almost like before Forrest Gump, “Run, Forrest, Run!” So, I got two great blocks and ran in a 74-yard touchdown.

I took it to the house on them. It was, oh, my god, I was excited.

Paul: Love it!

John: And their safety on kickoff was supposedly an all-state sprinter. But I left him in his tracks. And so, it was time that I was on defense. I was a defense player, so I’d get back out on defense. And I said, “Coach, I’m winded.” I was more excited, and my first time scoring like… And like, “Can us backup go in for me?” He said, “Yeah.”

So, this guy, a good friend of mine, rest his soul, Bubba Kitchelow. And he went out on my side, and first kinda had a big run. And the head coach like, “Well, who is that?” And we have this one coach had this high-pitched voice like Mickey Mouse kinda. Said, “That’s Kitchelow, sir.” And the coach said, “Young blood, like Kitchelow, he going everywhere.” And it made me laugh. I go back in the game, and we ended up beating Corsicana 21-13.

Paul: Wow.

John: We finally did it. And I said I got the game winning this touchdown for the Carthage Bulldogs. I mean, our defense, we were hitting these big boys. They thought they were just gonna like run over us. Nuh-uh.

And so, the next week we played against Terrell in Mesquite. And we beat them – yeah. We beat them 14 to 7.

I heard years later that they had a quarterback who was pretty good. I don’t know if he was a starter, he was a sophomore at the time. But he was really, really good. And his name was Eric Bishop.

Eric Bishop, aka Jamie Foxx at Terrell

Eric Bishop is now Jamie Foxx.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

John: Yeah. So, I don’t know if he was on the field, but I do know we beat Eric Bishop’s team. I wish I could say he was a quarterback for them. I wish I could find out he was the quarterback and then tear him up, back in 1983’s playoffs. Oh, that would be great if he was the quarterback. I’m like, “Man, I beat Jamie Foxx.” But I brag about it anyway, say, “Hey, Jamie Foxx was on that team.” I don’t care if he was a sophomore. He got beat by us. I didn’t play. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: I was a offensive coach on his team back in the day.

John: Oh, you were?

Paul: In a manner. I was one of his Assistant Coaches for the Miami Sharks OC Aaron Eckhart on ‘Any Given Sunday’

John: (laughs) I don’t think that counts!

Anyway he gets hurt. I mean, he had a pretty good quarter. I mean, when you watch him, the way he moves and stuff like that, you’ll, “Man, I bet he was a good athlete.” You know? Yeah, it’s Jamie Foxx. And he beat himself.

Paul: Okay. Tell me about what happened after that.

John: Well, we traveled our way across to Brownwood, Texas.

We played Lubbock Estacado. And the night before, we didn’t act civilized as football players. We were playing around and having fun. And I get up the next morning and I’m seeing the prep’s going out there, souping up the buses, the cheer squad, and all that jazz. And I said, “Man, we gotta play some football today.” And the first – we get to the stadium, doing our normal routine. And come back in the locker room, get dressed, and go back out for the specialties, and come back in.

And I remember right before our whole team – as the whole team was coming back in, I was in my locker, right where the door was. And I’m just tears coming down my face. I’m crying. Trying to get these guys excited. I probably was mumbling, like, “Look it man, what’s wrong with you all? What’s going on here? Why you so emotional about?” I was ready to play some football that day.

And in the first quarter, I got a interception and I almost got another one. We gonna rock this thing! We score and Daron Lewis made the extra point to have us up 7-0 . As the game goes on in the second quarter, our kicker nails a 44 yd kick that put us up 10-7. Our kicker had a prostheses lower leg. He plant on his right foot and kick with his left prostheses foot. His accident happened in the summer of 1977 but he’s been kicking since 9th grade, 1980. I think that 44 yd kick was a record for our school.

Second half Lubbock goes up 14-10 on us. They were trying a field goal and botched the snap. Their holder gets it and runs around our right side to score a TD. That took some wind out of us. Then with five minutes remaining in the game they scored again to make 20-10. We got the ball back and started throwing then score to make 20-16. Even getting the ball back it was too late cause they had momentum and time on their side. *That third quarter mishap that turned out great for them was the big play that favored them!

Paul: Oh, no. So, that was the semi-finals?

John: Semi-finals. And before that game, I was ready to go play either – I think Bay City beat Lubbock against Estacado, 30 to 0 in the state championship. I was ready. I was so gung-ho ready to play some football. I was ready to go up against Artie Banks and Joe DeLoach.

I don’t care who they had.

Lubbock Estacado knocks Carthage out

Paul: Right.

John: Artie Banks was the first-round pick, I think, or a second round pick by the New England Patriots. He was all everything at Oklahoma State. But I was, I mean, I was ready to play some football that day. And then I was more teed off when I learned that Lubbock and Santana didn’t even score against Bay City down in the Houston Astrodome. So, it’s probably on the way back from the semi-finals game, Daingerfield was playing in… We had a 12:00 game. Daingerfield was playing at night in Fort Worth.

And we would have been tying up just right because the head coach of Daingerfield had talked to our head coach. Said, “Listen, we wanna invite you guys come watch us play in the semi-finals. And we got tickets for you. And we gonna win for you.” And because you all the only team that scored on us. We only team gave them any trouble. We could have beat them.

But Coach Reynolds asked us, “Hey, do you guys wanna stop?” He asked the team, we said, “No. We don’t wanna stop.” That was the quietest bus ride. I mean, that was a long bus ride, too. That was a long bus ride. Oh, my god. That was a long bus ride. But it was a quiet bus ride back home to Carthage. And so, that was the end of my football career or so I thought. I didn’t think I was gonna get to the next level.

Part 2

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]]> 54 JAMES MILLARD CUMBY https://meminc.org/jamesmcumby/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jamesmcumby Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:59:25 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=2125

James had a brilliant, shrewd mind and a boundless curiosity and he often dabbled in photography, geology, mechanics, archeology, natural history and other disciplines that piqued his interest. James was a motorcycle enthusiast and rode a Harley Davidson. According to family members he was instrumental in developing one of the first panoramic photos. Looking closely, he can be found both at the far left end and at the far right end in the same photo. Notice the Davis Millinery Co of Dallas which made the Davis hats. They can still be found from time to time in antique stores.

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James Millard Cumby

Profile of a Dallas Businessman

Edited by Memories of Dallas Executive Director Paul Heckmann with a tip of the hat to Ms D  

James Millard Cumby

His great, great grandfather’s nephew was Robert H. Cumby, 1825-1881, a Civil War hero. Cumby, Tx. was named after Robert Cumby but his remains are buried in Sulphur Springs. The original headstone is still at the entrance to the cemetery in Cumby, Texas. The Cumby family moved from Virginia to Arkansas, Louisiana and finally to Texas sometime between 1870 and 1885. James was the son of John Major Cumby and Emma Lamira McClimons. James’ father, was born in Arkansas, lived in Louisiana, and eventually moved to Sulphur Springs, Tx. He married Emma, also from Sulphur Springs, in 1891.

John Major Cumby and Emma

They had James in 1894 and by 1900 Emma, John and James had moved to Waxahachie, Texas on Franklin St. It may be that Emma and John were not living together by 1910 as records show Emma and her son, James, or Jamie as he was called, living in Dallas at 2101 Live Oak where Emma ran a boarding house. They were apparently living alone except for boarders. Emma married John Francis Wyatt, 14 years her senior, on Aug 5, 1911, in Eureka Springs, Arkansas although no divorce records dissolving the marriage of John Cumby and Emma have been located as yet. That same year, 16 year old James Millard Cumby was sent to school at Peacock Military College in San Antonio.

1914, Lt. Cumby at encampment at Texas City, Tx

His half sister Frances

John Major Cumby died in 1913 and John Wyatt was appointed by the county court of Ellis County to be the custodian of young James’ inheritance which amounted to $6,000 – a considerable sum in 1913. This was the same year James’ half sister, Frances Evelyn Wyatt was born to Emma and Wyatt. James Millard Cumby in 1913 where he lived on Kaufman St. in Waxahachie, Tx. Emma and John Wyatt lived in Waxahachie until Wyatt’s death in 1932. Emma married a third time to Daniel Ouzts and they moved to Greenwood, South Carolina until his death in 1946 after which she returned to Waxahachie.

1914 – 1930

James Cumby

James Millard Cumby met and courted Anna Mays Hammond, the daughter of prominent businessman from Lancaster, Texas Ferdinand McLaren Hammond and Ida Corinne Moffett. The Hammond family was so influential that Anna was extended an invitation by President and Mrs. Wilson to a reception while she was away at school in Washington, D.C. and living at 3100 R Street.

Invitation to the White House

Emma and James married November 16, 1916. In 1917, with The Great War in progress, James had served one year as a First Lieutenant with the Texas Infantry. He was working as a “concentrator and shipper of produce” when he received his draft card May 28. With the war nearing an end and a pregnant wife at home, James did not serve overseas in the campaign but was stationed in Louisville, Kentucky for training. He served as Lt. Field Artillery. Their first son, James Millard Cumby, Jr., was born in January of 1918. In 1920, the Cumbys were living in Dallas at 1014 N. Zang in Oak Cliff. James Sr. worked as a bookeeper for the Electric Light Company of Dallas. They were renting a home at 402 Montreal St. by the time they welcomed their second son, John Hammond Cumby, in October of 1920. While James Cumby was honing his career and his work became more lucrative, Anna was at home raising the children. They enjoyed travel together often visiting National parks and famous landmarks. James had a brilliant, shrewd mind and a boundless curiosity and he often dabbled in photography, geology, mechanics, archeology, natural history and other disciplines that piqued his interest. 1925 James was a motorcycle enthusiast and rode a Harley Davidson. According to family members he was instrumental in developing one of the first panoramic photos. Looking closely, he can be found both at the far left end and at the far right end in the same photo. Notice the Davis Millinery Co of Dallas which made the Davis hats. They can still be found from time to time in antique stores. In 1924, Cumby was working at the Republic National Bank as an assistant Cashier and by 1927, at the age of 32, he had been promoted to Asst. Vice President of RNB. The Republic National Bank was known as the Guaranty Bank & Trust in 1920 so Cumby started out on the ground floor right along with the new bank. He was looked on with favor by his father in law, F.M. Hammond.

1930-1950 The 1930’s brought more prosperity for the Cumby family. James enjoyed another promotion in 1931 to full Vice President. He joined the country club, took flying lessons in 1932, and became an Executive Board Member of Circle Ten Council of the BSA in 1937. The Cumbys built their home at 4200 Windsor in University Park where they lived as of 1930 or before. A writeup in the Dallas Times Herald describes it as an architectural marvel. The 1940’s brought WWII but also great wealth to James Cumby. Everyone did their part. James Cumby, Sr. served as Major Commanding Officer of the 35th Battalion of the Texas State Guard. James Jr. and John had grown up as well. John on left.

John Hammond Cumby

John Hammond Cumby, James’s youngest son, joined the military and is seen at age 21 pictured in front of the Windsor house in University Park in 1941. James Cumby’s career exploded during the 1940’s. In 1945 he participated as a Member of the Executive Committee, the Commodity Committee, the Trust Committee, the Retirement Committee of the Republic National Bank Employee Retirement Fund and the Profit Sharing Trust Committee of the Savings and Profit Sharing Fund of the Republic National Bank Employees. He was on the Board of Directors of the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Company and Liberty State Bank. Cumby was active in civic affairs. He was a member of the Dallas Country Club and became Director of Goodwill Industries. He was recognized as an influential force in the banking industry and was often quoted in the newspapers. Colorado Rockies, 1945

Colorado Rockies, 1945

1950 -1970 These decades continued to see James Cumby as a prominent figure in the Dallas community and the banking industry. He was a deaconate of the Highland Park Presbyterian Church, a member of the Little Sandy Club, the Texas Game Fishing Club, the City Club, Lakewood Country Club, and director and president of the Dallas Knife and Fork Club. He was elevated to Senior Vice President of RNB in 1952. James also served on the Board of Directors of the National City Bank of Dallas, the First National Bank of Garland, the First National Bank of Honey Grove, Tx., and Dallas Title and Guaranty Company. Cumby was on the National Board of Directors of Goodwill Industries in Washington, D.C. in 1960. In 1961 he was appointed as the Chairman of the Executive Committee at RNB and in 1962 he was elected Vice Chairman of the Board of Directors there. He was the Director and Treasure of the Dallas Zoological Society, Director of the Caruth Memorial Rehabilitation Center, and Director of the Community Chest Trust Fund. Cumby made many investments during this time in real estate, oil and gas and other ventures. He was the Chairman of the Board and Chief executive officer of Wallace Investments, Inc. Cumby was also a member of the Audubon Society, both the Oklahoma and Texas Anthropological Societies, and the Texas Ornithological Society. As Dallas grew farther North, Anna and James eventually sold the house on Windsor Parkway and moved to a house on the corner of Valley View and Hillcrest. That house was demolished to make room for LBJ freeway and in 1963 they moved to 4947 Brookview north of Inwood and Northwest Hwy.

James and Anna Mays Cumby

As Dallas grew farther North, Anna and James eventually sold the house on Windsor Parkway and moved to a house on the corner of Valley View and Hillcrest. That house was demolished to make room for LBJ freeway and in 1963 they moved to 4947 Brookview north of Inwood and Northwest Hwy.

Cumby with DeWitt Ray, 1963

1970 – 1990 Anna Mays Hammond passed away in February of 1979. James Millard Cumby married Mariam C. Moore in November of that same year. They remained married until her death in 1988. Younger son, John, had been married to Katherine Furneaux, the daughter of a wealthy real estate family in Carrollton, Tx. She passed away in 1975 leaving behind their 3 children – a son and 2 daughters. John remarried shortly afterwards to Mae Etta “Darlin” Herrington. John lived in Montalba, Tx. north of Palestine from the 70 ‘s until his death in 2012. After the death of James’s second wife, Mariam, John brought his father to live with him in Montalba. James continued to enjoy life and relatively good health after retirement.

1988 in Montalba, James Cumby and John

James Millard Cumby died in Palestine, Tx. on August 30, 1989 at the age of 95. He is interred at Sparkman Hillcrest Cemetery. His oldest son, James Jr., passed away just 9 years later in 1998. His younger son, John, died in 2012. James still has grandchildren living in Colorado and great grandchildren in Dallas.

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]]> 2125 THE OTHER AMBER https://meminc.org/theotheramber/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=theotheramber https://meminc.org/theotheramber/#comments Tue, 03 Dec 2019 20:02:38 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?p=2066 Amber Nichole Crum was a two-year-old Dallas girl who vanished on December 26th, 1983 from her family’s truck, parked in front of McDonald’s Grocery at 1016 Murdock Road located in Southeast Dallas County. The business was a mere two blocks from the home where the girl, her mother Stephanie and her mother’s live-in boyfriend James Britt Monroe lived. What happened next was a trial that ended in a whodunit, a possible break, and a family whose lives were ultimately destroyed. This is the story of Amber Crum

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The Other Amber

by Kanon Beltran

Edited by Scott Matthews

Amber Nichole Crum was a two-year-old Dallas girl who vanished on December 26th, 1983 from her family’s truck, parked in front of McDonald’s Grocery at 1016 Murdock Road located in Southeast Dallas County. The business was a mere two blocks from the home where the girl, her mother Stephanie and her mother’s live-in boyfriend James Britt Monroe lived. What happened next was a trial that ended in a whodunit, a possible break, and a family whose lives were ultimately destroyed. This is the story of Amber Crum.

Hilda’s Grovery at 1016 Murdock, formerly McDonald’s Grocery

December 26th, 1983, was like any other day for those who lived in Dallas County. For the most part, stores were closed with it being the post-holiday season. James Britt Monroe, a live-in boyfriend of Amber Crum’s mother Stephanie and Stephanie’s daughter Amber, stopped at McDonald’s Grocery. James left the truck, leaving Amber alone inside the truck while he made his way into the small grocery store. After purchasing paper towels and soft drinks, within five minutes Monroe exited the business and made his way back to the truck. It was then that he noticed Amber was missing. James contacted the Dallas police. A search of the area was initiated, which lasted around two days. On December 28th, according to Dallas police and the FBI, both departments believed the former husband of Amber’s mother, named Larry Crum (who lived in Carrollton, Kentucky at the time) had the girl This was considered their best lead; however, Larry later called Amber’s mother Stephanie Hughes and told her he did not have the girl,. he FBI and the Dallas police then dismissed him as a person of interest.

The other Amber

On December 29th Dallas police were convinced the girl had been kidnapped. Though no new leads had surfaced since Larry Crum was dismissed as a person of interest, three days previously, it should be noted that a Dallas police Investigator named Paul Royak said there didn’t appear to be any sign of a struggle and that the door on the truck was shut when they searched for clues. This information left the family heartbroken and, along with Dallas Investigators, dumbfounded. Amber’s parents and extended family had a hard time thinking of anyone who would want to take or hurt the girl. Search dogs, a police helicopter and door to door searches of Murdock Road were conducted, again to no avail. Amber’s mother Stephanie said she thought the girl was safe On the other hand, Investigator Paul Ronyak told journalists that he wasn’t going to speculate further. This leads me to believe that he either thought there was more to the story, or that he thought it was stranger related. I don’t know how he came to that conclusion though if he did.

On December 30th, with little hope, the family of Amber Crum decided to talk to a psychic to see if they could gain more information in regards to Amber’s whereabouts The psychic told the family that he thought the girl was unharmed, and that she was probably more confused and scared. However, take this with a grain of salt; whatever you believe about psychics is your right. For the family at least it brought them hope that Amber was safe and secure.

On December 31st, Dallas police searched a nearby rendering plant after child-size footprints were found on the property. After a further search of the grounds, no evidence that the child had ever been there was found, so the plant was dismissed. Also, a description of what Amber was wearing at the time she disappeared (a purple Cowboys snow jacket) was released. It seems this was a first, as photos used of Amber showed completely different clothing.

On January 1st of 1984, the only thing Dallas investigators/police announced was “No new progress had been made.” a familiar quote that was sounding like a broken record, although it wasn’t their fault. January 2nd, and January 3rd yet again the same statement was made. It seemed that investigators were at a stalemate. The days following were just the same, even as far as January 9th, with news articles from The Dallas Morning News just repeating the same information over and over. It seemed that Dallas police/investigators had exhausted all of their leads.

Then on January 14th, Dallas police announced a sudden new development in the case: James Britt Monroe the person who had been with Amber the day she disappeared, was arrested and charged in connection with the possible slaying of the child. He was transported to Lew Sterrett Justice Center and was held on a $50,000 bond. According to Dallas police, Monroe repeatedly told them the child had been abducted the day she went missing from the truck in front of McDonald’s Grocery. W.F Gentry of the Youth Division said, i “In the last 48 hours, we have gathered some additional information There was someone with information that was valuable to us.” Although he wouldn’t elaborate any further, nor did he comment on how police believed the child was killed, according to Gentry they had also contacted Amber’s mother, although he didn’t disclose anything that was discussed. A polygraph test was conducted on James Monroe, but the results were also not disclosed. When Monroe did not show up for a meeting on the 14th, Dallas Police issued a warrant for “Probable Cause” in order to initiate the arrest.

On January 15th, Dallas police searched Monroe’s home in Pleasant Grove but failed to locate any evidence. On the 16th, Dallas police searched a different Pleasant Grove home after they received a tip from a caller who said they thought they saw James Britt Monroe leaving the home. However, Dallas police reportedly again found nothing. James Britt Monroe was jailed as late as the 18th of January. The prosecutor was granted extra time to present evidence against Monroe, however, I honestly don’t know what they were expecting to find.

On January 17th Dallas Police filed a murder charge against James Britt Monroe in regard to the purported “death” of the missing two-year-old girl, even though, according to the Dallas Morning News, the department was unable to locate the body of the missing girl. This was only the second time in the department’s history that murder charges in a case had been filed ( where a body had yet to be found. Dallas police’s reasoning behind this charge was that they believed Amber Crum was killed in Monroe’s home, despite the fact they found zero evidence of such a crime in a search of the home. They also stated they had enough proof to charge him; however. I don’t know if that information was from a witness who saw something Christmas day or the day after. Dallas Police and a private investigator hired by Amber’s grandparents named Bill Dear refused to explain what evidence they had to substantiate the charge of murder, Monroe’s attorney Kevin Clancy filed in response a writ of Habeas Corpus hearing for the day.

On the same day as the murder charge, Dallas police reported that Monroe failed to complete the polygraph test because he attempted to control the outcome of his test by altering his breathing patterns, although as many of you know polygraphs are inadmissible in court. Dallas police Captain William Gentry also said the department believed that the story of Amber vanishing from the truck was bogus, Paul Ronyak also mentioned that the department believed drugs played a role in the girl’s disappearance.

On January 18th, a court hearing was held at the Dallas County courthouse downtown. Stephanie Hughes Amber’s mother in a statement said that she believed Amber was alive Christmas night when she went to bed. According to the Dallas police, this contradicted her initial statement to them. She initially told investigators that her daughter had been very cold with her eyes open and unblinking when she checked on her at 9:30 P.M on Christmas night and that she believed Amber was dead at that time. This reveals that Amber’s mother was the unnamed witness who came forward to Investigators. It seems that as early as the previous Thursday, Amber’s mother told Dallas police that she believed the child was dead Christmas night, saying that the child was turned towards the wall in her crib and that the child’s eyes were open and that Amber felt “chilled.” However, she maintained that she went to bed with the mindset that the child was alive.

Stephanie Hughes’s testimony from Tuesday the) also contained information that said James Britt Monroe stripped Amber’s crib and washed her blanket, sheets, nightgown, and pillowcase. Amber’s mother noted this as odd as Monroe never washed anything in the seven months he had been living there. In the same testimony, Stephanie Hughes told her sister Lynn that according to her, Monroe had beaten Amber. She noted bruises on Amber’s back, legs, and ear, but she said she did not personally witness anyone strike the child. She also noted that another family member, an unnamed aunt of Stephanie and Lynn, who took the girl from Monroe’s house the day after Thanksgiving per request of Stephanie, also said the child appeared to have been beaten. We now know that Stephanie changed her statement to be that she believed Amber was alive Christmas night. This was the end of January 18th’s court hearing.

On January 19th, Stephanie Hughes took the witness stand. In another surprising statement, Hughes admitted that on Christmas day, she and Monroe had used “illegal drugs.” However, she said she didn’t believe that Monroe was under the influence of drugs that day. She also testified that Amber disappeared at 9:30 AM, which was before she woke up. Hughes then referenced the missing items from the crib, saying again and again that they had been washed by Monroe, something Hughes called “unusual.” She also said Monroe told her that he was just helping. Hughes also testified that on Christmas night, she heard Monroe yelling at the child while he was bathing her because Amber hadn’t swallowed some food that he had given her. Also, according to the prosecutor, on Wednesday the day before the second trial, private Investigator Dear was told by Monroe that he spanked Amber after she tried to crawl into the clothes dryer at his Pleasant Grove home. Monroe’s attorney Kevin Clancy later noted that he had sought the hearing to gain details on the state’s case against Monroe and to attempt to reduce his client’s $50,000 bail.

January 20th was day three of the trial against Monroe. A shocking decision was made. Charges were dropped against James Britt Monroe in connection with Amber’s disappearance, due to a lack of enough evidence tying him to the incident. Monroe was then released from jail. According to District Judge Don Metcalfe, Monroe’s release was also due to Stephanie Hughes’ statement contradicting her sworn statement. Metcalfe did plan on referring the case to the Grand Jury in hopes for an indictment. According to Stephanie’s aunt, Hughes was confused about the entire hearing, the whole trial was very stressful for both sides, and while James celebrated the non-guilty verdict, Amber was still missing. The question was still open: What happened to the two-year-old, and where was she? Vada Hughes, Stephanie’s aunt, maintained that Amber was dead, however, Stephanie maintained hope just as any parent would.

On February 15th, Stephanie Hughes moved in with her other aunt, Julie Briscoe, so that she could be put under “strict supervision.” per request of Dallas Investigators and Stephanie’s other aunt Vada. Stephanie also underwent hypnosis so that she could recall what happened on Christmas day better. I find this questionable because Stephanie later took a trip to Indiana to see her mother. Stephanie’s aunt Julie, like Vada, had a feeling at the time that the child was dead. For investigators and Dallas police, the investigation was back to square one. They had very few leads and were hoping for a break in the case. Meanwhile, James’s attorney Kevin Clancy argued presumption of innocence and that the media had latched onto small “insignificant” details. Interestingly, Kevin Clancy said Monroe had a witness (who Hughes said was a co-worker) who testified before a Dallas Grand Jury that Amber was alive and that he heard Amber talking the morning of her disappearance. This witness as of today has not been identified as far as I know.

Stephanie Hughes was put under several more hypnosis sessions per the request of P.I Bill Dear. Initially, these went nowhere. However, according to Dear, Stephanie later recalled an incident that had happened in the bathroom. According to Stephanie, on Christmas evening, Amber had followed Monroe into the bathroom. Amber then suddenly cried out. When Stephanie went to see what the issue was, in her words she saw Monroe shaking Amber trying to dislodge something from the young girl’s mouth. Stephanie stated that Monroe told her Amber hadn’t finished her dinner. He also told her he was trying to get it out. The recollection ended here. Dear said he believed this incident was key to finding out what happened, and that Stephanie was suppressing something that might have been game-changing.

It seems that Stephanie still doubted Monroe’s story. In a statement from February 15th, she said she couldn’t get over the fact that Monroe was the last person Amber was with, and that whatever happened with Amber happened while he was with her., Hughes and Monroe cut contact with each other. Although Stephanie mentioned that she wanted to hear his side of the story, I couldn’t find anything after February 15th. Another major announcement in the case was made on March 31st when the jury in the trial decided to no bill James Britt Monroe in Amber’s disappearance. As of the 31st, there were no new leads in the case.

There was not much new development in the case, nor many news stories during the period from April to early June. On June 16th, a discovery was made in Breckenridge TX, west of Fort Worth, that gave Dallas investigators hope. Skeletal remains were found near a rural road. They were said to have belonged to a small child, although the identity remained a mystery. The next day, however, they were identified as belonging to Ryan Burton, age: 3. She was reported missing in 1981 from her family’s home in Breckenridge. That case remains unsolved. Dallas police’s hope of finding Amber was yet again dashed, and the department went back to looking for leads and searching areas around Murdock road.

Later into 1984 news coverage seemed to dwindle. I couldn’t find anything from late June up to early December. I did, however, find one article from December 23rd, 1984, two days before the case turned one year old. It said Amber’s mother hoped that the girl was still alive and that she said she refused to believe the child was dead. Hughes insisted that the girl would return soon. Any parent would feel this way and most who have lost a child feel this way from time to time. Dallas police, on the other hand, were certain that the girl was dead; however, they still had no idea where she was.

Dallas police had many theories on the girl’s disappearance, ranging from drugs due to an arrest regarding James Britt Monroe for possessing illegal drugs, to an accident involving the child. However, they did not elaborate on other theories. A longtime investigator named Konyak also noted there was the possibility of a death bed confession, something not uncommon. According to Konyak, finding the body was still a possibility. More than 70 leads on where the body of the missing girl might be were followed. However, the sites were searched to no avail. Konyak told the Dallas Morning News that even if Amber was found, identification would be impossible. The girl hadn’t had any major surgeries nor distinct scars that could easily identify her. Konyak said Clothes were their only hope, and even then they only knew what Amber had been wearing from the formerly charged James Britt Monroe.

Monroe had several previous run-ins with the law, with charges ranging from processing methamphetamine to firing off a gun behind his home in city limits. The drug possession charge came up around the time questions arose about Amber’s treatment at home. Despite the allegations, Dallas Police seemed to have not thought Monroe was guilty of foul play; however, they felt he wasn’t telling them everything he knew. With the trial having found him not guilty, they would have to find another way to gain information from Monroe. After this, Stephanie Hughes moved to Indiana with her parents, and the last time she saw Monroe was at the trial. She told the Dallas Morning News that she missed him at the time. It seems she hoped that he could tell her something he knew. Perhaps he would feel more comfortable talking to her. Monroe, on the other hand, sold his home and moved in with another woman he knew who was also named Stephanie. She also had a two-year-old daughter. Monroe refused to comment on Amber’s case, Stephanie nor his difficulties except through his lawyer. However, according to his lawyer, he hoped Amber would be found safe and alive. Also according to Monroe, the publicity of the case ruined his life, he couldn’t live quietly, this also seemed to affect his family who also defended him saying he had nothing to do with the girl’s disappearance.

Stephanie and her family were deeply affected by this whole case. Her parents refused to put up a Christmas tree and held onto a gift that Amber had overlooked the previous year. Stephanie said she would return to Dallas in hopes of finding her girl. She always seemed to maintain hope and I commend her for that, no parent ever should have to go through what these families have dealt with. Christmas day of 1984 came and went. I couldn’t find any information or developments after a December 23rd article; however, I suspect that a small vigil was held for the then what would have been a four-year-old girl. Unfortunately, the case files are not public, so I have very little to go on for 1985.

As 1986 rolled around, the case seemed to have gone cold for the first half of the year, then on August 8th, 1986, a possible break in the case was made. An article suggested hat a San Bernardino detective from California contacted Dallas police after a five-year-old girl who reportedly looked like Amber was found in the city. The detective told police that the girl’s date of birth fit within the range of Amber’s. Fingerprints were taken which Dallas police anxiously awaited. Unfortunately, it was not to be. While the girl physically looked like Amber, her fingerprints proved that the girl was not in fact Amber. Dallas Police were heartbroken. I couldn’t find any comments from Amber’s family nor from James, but I suspect they felt the same way Dallas did and rightfully so. They were back to square one yet again.

August 10th, 1986 was the last (Officially Released) update on the case. From what I can tell, the case went cold, although it was briefly mentioned with several other “Abduction cases.” in an August 24th, news article. Dallas investigators as far as I can tell never gave up on this case; however, it was downgraded to low priority, most likely due to a lack of new legitimate leads and failed searches. It seemed like Dallas police would never get anywhere with this case. Then in 2007, almost twenty-one years to the date, the case would take a shocking and sudden change in direction.

Although the exact date was not given in 2007, David Elliot Penton, a known serial-killer in the Dallas area in the 1980s was announced as a new person of interest in Amber Crum’s case. Penton, who had already been charged for three other area murders in Mesquite, North Dallas, and Garland, may have been active in the area as early as 1983.ccording to multiple cellmates of Penton, he implicated himself in Amber’s disappearance, although the details on this have not yet been released as of 2019. This may be due to investigators hoping to find evidence that ties Penton to Amber’s case.

The one thing that sets this case apart from Penton’s other victims is that Amber has still not been found. All three victims in the other three Dallas cases were found within two years in neighboring counties, which was Penton’s modus operandi. If Amber is indeed one of Penton’s victims, Dallas police will need to search neighboring counties, including fields, and check Jane Doe records from the 80s for those counties.

Lastly, could there be another unidentified victim? Penton is thought to have kidnapped six girls in the Dallas area, three of whom survived. Could there have in fact been a 7th victim whom he either let go, managed to escape or worst of all killed? We won’t know until he says something. As of 2019, there have been no new developments in this case, or at least public developments, nor any new comments from Amber’s parents, although I do not know if this is because they would rather stay out of the public spotlight or they are worried the very worst might become of this.

This December will mark twenty-six years since Amber vanished that cold December day back in 1983 from James Britt Monroe’s pickup. I think I’ve found James Britt Monroe on social media recently though I can’t say for sure. I assume he’s changed his name due to the stigma in Dallas. I have been unable to find Stephanie Hughes or any of her family; they may have stayed away from social media like so many others who have dealt with these types of tragedies. McDonald’s Grocery has since closed. It is now a residence. James Britt Monroe’s home also has been moved into by another family. Dallas investigators have hopefully never given up on this case. I hope Amber’s family finds peace one day. They’ve possibly isolated themselves due to this tragedy.

Courtesy the Family of Amber Nichole Crum

Will Amber ever be found? We do not know. Unfortunately, only time will tell. The once rural area surrounding Murdock Road is starting to be developed for homes and businesses. A concrete plant was even built nearby tearing up a big chunk of the land. As new development takes place, anything can happen. Only two people truly know what happened, and whether you believe Monroe got away with murder or Penton is behind all of this, only time will tell, and for now, we can only speculate. I highly doubt the local news like Fox 4, WFAA or NBC 5 will run a story for the anniversary of Amber’s case, It’s not surprising but still disappointing. In the end, Amber’s family needs closure, Dallas Police need closure and the residents of Pleasant Grove need closure.

If you have any information that can lead to the whereabouts of Amber Crum (who if alive would be 38 years old in 2019,) please contact Dallas Police at 214-670-4426.

Thank you as always.

#FindAmberCrum

 

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]]> https://meminc.org/theotheramber/feed/ 1 2066 AFTER ELIZABETH BARKLEY https://meminc.org/afterelizabethbarclay/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=afterelizabethbarclay https://meminc.org/afterelizabethbarclay/#comments Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:04:27 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?p=1930

October 23 1979 - 7 year old Elizabeth Barclay, her brother and another unrelated child were walking to a grocery store when an here-to-yet unidentified black male stopped them along Community Drive and Northwest Highway. The man then grabbed Barclay and according to the two other children, threatened to drown the girl, then jumped into his car with the young girl and drove away. An investigaton began immediately. The disappearance of the girl brought up memories of the disappearance of Tyra Heath back in July and of another girl five years earlier. Dallas police launched an all points bulletin and called in Dallas Police helicopters to aid in a wider search in hopes of finding the girl.

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After Elizabeth Barclay

By Kanon Beltran, Moderator, Memories of Dallas

Edited by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories of Dallas

Who killed Elizabeth Barclay? It’s been forty years since the young girl was kidnapped, shocking the citizens of Dallas, which happened only three months after the kidnapping and murder of young Tyra Heath of Mesquite

October 23 1979 – 7 year old Elizabeth Barclay, her brother and another unrelated child were walking to a grocery store when an here-to-yet unidentified black male stopped them along Community Drive and Northwest Highway. The man then grabbed Barclay and according to the two other children, threatened to drown the girl, then jumped into his car with the young girl and drove away.

An investigation began immediately. The disappearance of the girl brought up memories of the disappearance of Tyra Heath back in July and of another girl five years earlier. Dallas police launched an all points bulletin and called in Dallas Police helicopters to aid in a wider search in hopes of finding the girl.

There were other documented witnesses, a woman identified as E.C Landy who said she heard screams from the area and also a Hispanic gentleman who claimed he saw the whole thing.

October 27th – Four days after the abduction the parents of Elizabeth, Linda and David Barclay held a press conference and plead for their daughter’s return. A call was made that night by a Psychic however Dallas police determined the information shared by the caller wasn’t plausible.

October 30th – the search widened including a search of the Coppell area and the Trinity River bottom with Dallas Police, Dallas REACT Members and Elizabeth’s father David. Nothing was found.

November 7th – Elizabeth’s parents had raised $10,000 in reward money in hopes of the safe return of Elizabeth. A better vehicle description was also put out in an article about the missing girl, the description now read that police were looking for a two-door Buick, and a black male, 5’6 with sideburns. More helicopter searches were conducted to no avail.

November – the family held several vigils over the months of October and November however, it seemed they weren’t drawing the crowds they were hoping for. None the less, although divorced, the Barclays acted in tandem trying to find thier little girl

November 18th – Dallas Morning News ran a full page ad in support of finding Elizabeth. The reward had been upped to $15,000 and an updated photo of the girl had also been included
(however I did notice the poster didn’t run with details of the Buick or the abductor which seems really odd to me, you’d think they would have included it in hopes of finding the girl and her abductor or at least gotten a call in on someone recognizing both.)

December – As December descended upon the city, hope was fading. And unfortunately that bit of hope would be struck down during the Christmas week.

December 21 – an unidentified person discovered skeletal remains on a dirt road, off what is now Wingo Way in Wills Point a few miles outside of Dallas.

The Barclay’s were informed of this discovery and that they could possibly be Elizabeth’s remains. The Dallas County Medical Examiner confirmed that suspicion using dental records. The cause of death was determined to have been gunshot.

December 23 – Robert Douglas Durkee was arrested for an unrelated kidnapping in University Park and was thought to have been connected to Elizabeth’s case

December 24 – Police decided he was not connected to the case and let him go.

December 30 – leads had dried up in the Barclay investigation. A funeral was held for Elizabeth at Restland, a small crowd gathered to celebrate the life of a young child who had been taken too soon.

And that was the end of what the public knows of the Barclays and Elizabeth.

Nothing remains of the Barclay house at 9260 Starlight. A car wash has taken its place.

As for Dallas, another tragedy was forthcoming in December. Another child 7 year old, Steven Craig Little had been abducted the same day Elizabeth was found and whose tiny body was found the day after off of Abrams Road. While there was not public connection of these two cases, Dallas parents must have been reeling.

Looking back, this goes into the Cold Case Files. The case remains unsolved and no new leads have been released to the public.

I have my own theory; Elizabeth’s murder was very similar to another girl around the same age named Ladina McCoy. Ladina died via a gunshot and was found near Mountain Creek Lake. No suspect has been identified in Ladina’s case.

February 22 1980 – A girl aged between 4-6 was kidnapped from a sidewalk in East Dallas by a man identified as a 6 feet tall black male with a goatee, the girl was thrown into a dirty blue station wagon, the man then drove off with the girl never to be seen again.

February 24 – Dallas Police were puzzled by this disappearance, but thinking that this case was parental, the investigation was dropped.

Back to Elizabeth’s case I don’t know if Elizabeth’s parents are still alive nor the whereabouts of her brother Scott, much like the Heaths who I talked about in a previous blog post. I suspect they’ve stayed away from social media, Elizabeth’s case has been relatively forgotten and sadly wouldn’t be the last stranger abduction in the DFW area, there have been a total of thirty-one cases from 1977-2000 a staggering number for such a short time. Other area cases have grabbed media attention more, Amber Hagerman and Ashley Estell come to mind both of which are also cold cases, I suspect none of the major news media will run a story although even a brief mention could dust the cobwebs and furnish new leads and give Elizabeth, her family and all the other families the justice they deserve.

Elizabeth Barclay would have been forty-seven this year. If you have any information please contact Dallas Police at (214) 670-8345.

Thank you and I only ask for respect for the Barclays in the comments.

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]]> https://meminc.org/afterelizabethbarclay/feed/ 20 1930 THE LAST WORDS OF BIG TEX… https://meminc.org/billbragg/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=billbragg https://meminc.org/billbragg/#comments Mon, 19 Aug 2019 16:50:41 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1547

Well, Guy Lombardo was at Louann's one night. I was selling popcorn table to table. They had a special table set up for them out in the middle of the club. I walked up to the table, but it was dark and I didn't recognize him. So I asked if he'd like to buy some popcorn. He looked up at me and said, "I'll make you a deal". He and his band were there with their wives. He said, "We want to go dance. If you'll sit here and keep an eye on the ladies' purses, I'll buy all the popcorn you've got." So I did, and he bought all my popcorn. I made more money that night than I ever thought I'd make in my life. Roy Orbison was there signing autographs. I wasn't selling popcorn that night. I was out picking up beer bottles off the tables. I used to like cleaning the tables. I'd sniff the beer bottles. On occasion I might have even sipped some beer out of a couple of them. Hell, when you're a kid you gotta get your beer where you can. So, Roy Orbison was over there signing autographs. He looked over at me and said, "Would you like an autograph too?" I said, "That's okay, I'll get one next time you're here". And he never came back to Louann's.

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Bill and his prize baby! Photo courtesy Bill Bragg

The Last Words of Big Tex…

The Bill Bragg Story,

His Final Interview

With Special Guest Kim Bragg

By Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Incorporated
Edited by Mark Cheyne, Administrator, Memories of Dallas

The first words you would hear as you approached the Texas State Fair. That voice…

“Howdy folks. Tex is mighty proud to see all you folks down yonder. And Tex wants to make sure that every last one of you have a real fun, and real safe time while you’re here at the Fair.”

For a dozen years the 6’5 Bill Bragg was the voice and image of Big Tex, both through the speakers from his studio and his forays onto the midway at the State Fair of Texas. Before that he was a Broadcast Engineer, Camera & Audio Operator for some three decades at CBS, Ch 11 KTVT and FOX, Ch 4 KDFW and so many more. Also Chief Broadcast Engineer for EDS/Hewlett Packard.

The Big Tex Twins! Bill and Big Tex side by side at the entrance to the fair. Photo courtesy Bill Bragg and Wesley Treat at texastwisted.com 

Bill and I started work on this interview in 2018 and I traveled to Richardson half a dozen times in 2019 to speak to Bill, but unfortunately dementia was starting to take him. Some days the interviews would last 5 minutes, other days several hours with the same things repeated over and over. I had just spoken to him a couple of days before he passed away, we were going sit down and finalize this interview. That never happened.

I went back a couple of weeks ago to spend some time with the lovely Kim Bragg, Bill’s widow. She really helped us capture Bill’s essence.

The way I saw Bill, you really liked him or you didn’t, there wasn’t much of an in-between. He wasn’t always the easiest guy to get along with, some days he could be very sharp edged, other days quite accommodating. But you never had to worry about him not completing his job. He was simply a fella that got stuff done. That was Bill.

And thanks so much to my fellow Administrator at ‘Memories of Dallas’ Mark Cheyne who helped me dissect many, many hours of taped interviews. Couldn’t have done it without you.

Paul Heckmann: Good morning Bill. Tell me about growing up in Dallas

A very young Bill at Hillcrest HS before he grew a bunch taller! Courtesy Steve Bourn and his Hillcrest HS Annual collection

Bill Bragg: You bet. I was born in Dallas in 1946. I went to Vickery Elementary School and Benjamin Franklin and Hillcrest High Schools, then I went to college for a year at Garland Christian College.

Paul Heckmann: And during this time your dad was working over at the famous superclub Louann’s for Lou and Ann Bovis?

Bill Bragg: Yes, my dad was Marvin Bragg. He worked part time there and also worked at First Texas Pharmaceuticals manufacturing drugs.

I guess you could say that’s where I got hooked on the entertainment world and working behind the scenes. My dad tended bar, took tickets, a little bit of everything. My aunt, his youngest sister, Helen Dollinger was a waitress there. And as an under-aged kid I worked there, selling popcorn, cleaning tables and such. I was probably 10 – 15 years old.

Paul Heckmann: So I guess you knew Ann Bovis pretty well.

Bill Bragg: Yes, and Nonnie, the head waitress, and Clara the cook.

Paul Heckmann: And you must have known Tony Bovis and the Martinkus boys when you were kids?

Bill Bragg: Oh yes, I used to go swimming out at the Bovis house. In fact that’s where I learned to swim. They lived in the Abrams/NW Hwy area when it was still out in the country.

The local convenience store was Cabell’s which was on the corner of Lontos and Abrams was owned by Earle Cabell, who went on to be mayor of Dallas. One day he called Ann Bovis and told her that if her kids were going to keep riding up to his store, he was going to have to install rings for them to tie their horses to.

Ann Bovis of Louann’s in front of the entrance in an ad for Dal Tex. Courtesy the Bovis family

Anton Martinkus was Ann’s brother. He served under George Patton when Patton was a Major. He went to the Pacific and fought in the Phillipines. He was Army Cavalry, so you know he had no problem keeping people in line. I’m sure some of Patton’s saltiness had rubbed off on him.

Paul Heckmann: Did you get to see or meet any big name acts at Louann’s?

Bill Bragg: Well, Guy Lombardo was there one night. I was selling popcorn table to table. They had a special table set up for them out in the middle of the club. I walked up to the table, but it was dark and I didn’t recognize him. So I asked if he’d like to buy some popcorn. He looked up at me and said, “I’ll make you a deal”. He and his band were there with their wives. He said, “We want to go dance. If you’ll sit here and keep an eye on the ladies’ purses, I’ll buy all the popcorn you’ve got.” So I did, and he bought all my popcorn. I made more money that night than I ever thought I’d make in my life.

I saw Bruce Chanel there one night. He had the one hit song, “Hey Baby”. He kind of dated a cousin of mine some. Anyway he was there and Roy Orbison was there signing autographs.

I wasn’t selling popcorn that night. I was out picking up beer bottles off the tables. I used to like cleaning the tables. I’d sniff the beer bottles. On occasion I might have even sipped some beer out of a couple of them. Hell, when you’re a kid you gotta get your beer where you can.

So, Roy Orbison was over there signing autographs. He looked over at me and said, “Would you like an autograph too?” I said, “That’s okay, I’ll get one next time you’re here”. And he never came back to Louann’s.

I’m the stupidest guy in the world. I was at the LBJ Library in Austin. LBJ was there with Walter Cronkite. They were shooting a piece for ’60 Minutes’. I didn’t get their autographs either.

You know, you don’t have to put that in, but I’ll kick your butt if you don’t.

Paul Heckmann: Well, you’re certainly big enough to take a crack at it!

So did you meet any other big name acts while you were working at Louann’s?

Bill Bragg: I met Trini Lopez there, although I’d already met him once before. My mother worked as a secretary for 5 Bishops of the First United Methodist Church. Every year the church would have its annual ‘Roundup’ for the members. They’d serve barbecue, and one year they hired Trini Lopez to play. So I met him there, and spent time backstage with him and his band.

So then he turned up playing at Louann’s, and I ran into him again there. He remembered me from the Church Roundup and said, “What are you doing HERE?” He was quite surprised to see me at Louann’s. So I guess I met him in Holy and not so Holy places.

Louann’s, the early years. From 1939 when it was pretty much a stand alone drive in with an outdoor dance garden. Photo courtesy the Bovis and Martinkus families.

I remember my dad would come home and say they had a big crowd, because someone big was there. Sometimes it was local acts like The Chessmen with Jimmy Vaughan, or Kenny and the Kasuals. And some touring acts would pack the house, like Rod Stewart or Jeff Beck.

A couple of side notes on my mom and dad. As I said before, my mom worked for the Methodist Church we attended. At some point the wife of one of the church elders died, and there was some question whether foul play might have been involved. Probably because shortly afterward the widowed elder ran off with the Sunday school teacher. The same one that taught me the Beatitudes.

And as you know my dad worked at the pharmaceutical company. They made aspirin for the City of Dallas. And of course some of the aspirin were distributed in the jail. Well, the inmates had figured out how to boil down the aspirin and get the caffeine out of them. So they had to have the company reformulate the aspirin without any caffeine.

Paul Heckmann: So you have left your first career as a table wiper and popcorn maker. What did you do next?

Bill Bragg: I also worked in television, at KDFW and KTVT. I ran camera, I switched, and ran audio too. I also ran the floor sometimes. You know, cue cards, time cues, stuff like that. I also did some on-air gigs as Bill Benson.

But most of the time I was on camera or something to do with engineering

Bill behind the camera with Sonny and Cher. Photo courtesy Bill Bragg

Bill donated this press passes to Memories Inc.

Bill doing some side work for KPCN at the State Fair

Bill working for KDFW .

 

Another 1960 press pass for KTVT, courtesy Bill Bragg

Bill donated these State Fair press passes to Memories Inc.

Bill Bragg’s press passes that he donated to Memories Inc. Various Cowboy games 

And over at KSKY which was on top of the Stoneleigh Hotel

Bill worked briefly at KSKY also

But I guess my heart belonged to Channel 4 and CBS

Bill working on camera at Ch 4

Bill on the brand new mini-cam at Ch 4. He was chosen cause he was the only one tall and strong enough to carry that thing! Courtesy Bill Bragg

One day I was running the floor for Frank Glieber’s sports report. He’s sitting up at the desk while we’re in commercial, and he’s talking to someone on the phone. Getting the latest updates I assumed, because some of the games were still going on.

So I’m saying, “Stand by Frank” “Thirty seconds Frank”. And he’s still talking on the phone.

Then I say, “Hey, Frank! Fifteen seconds!” Then the countdown, “5, 4, 3,…”, and he looks up at me and winks. And I wink back ready to kill him.

And you know what happened? He went home that night and he and his wife had sex and she got pregnant. They had the cutest little baby boy that they named Mitch. A name that just happens to rhyme with something I won’t say here. Anyway, Mitch grew up and became the head boss at the State Fair and I ended up working for him until the day I didn’t.

Paul Heckmann: So I guess we better backtrack a bit and find out what that job was! Can you tell us a little about that?

Bill Bragg: Well, I was with the State Fair, the voice of Big Tex, for more than a decade.

“Howdy folks. Tex is mighty proud to see all you folks down yonder. And Tex wants to make sure that every last one of you have a real fun, and real safe time while you’re here at the Fair.”

And it was neat because all I had to do was talk.

Paul Heckmann: And you obviously hate talking. (with a chuckle…)

Bill Bragg: Unless I get paid for it. Then I’ll talk your arm off.

One last thing, I’ve got an idea here. You know John McKay at channel 8 is going to retire. I’ve got a 12 foot statue of Big Tex at my house. I wonder if that would make a good retirement gift.

Huge 12 foot tall Big Tex mannequin that the State Fair was throwing away. Bill rescued the little fellar. Photo courtesy Paul Heckmann

Paul Heckmann: Wait. You have a 12 foot statue of Big Tex at your house? Where did you get that?

Bill Bragg: Well, the first year I was at the Fair, it was Big Tex’ 50th birthday. They’d have a nightly parade, and there was a float with this statue on it. When the Fair ended I went down the midway to say goodbye to some of my carny friends. And there that statue was, sticking out of a trash bin. So I took it home and I’ve had it ever since.

Paul Heckmann: So tell me about Big Tex.

Bill Bragg: I guess the first thing is that there are no folks sitting inside of him. There is enough room up there for a few people but there is no air conditioning and its too dang hot in Texas for that!

There is small sound studio just in front of Big Tex, over to the side where I would sit and talk. The voice was never taped, I was always live.

Lots of folks ask about how big ‘Big Tex’ is. First I would say that the Big Tex that I worked with burned down at the end of my tenure. He was 52 foot tall, the official mascot of the State Fair Of Texas, Tex wore a size 70 cowboy boot and his hat was a whopping 75 gallon Stetson. Every three years he gets a new outfit, that is always good for some new press.

Big Tex burning. Photo courtesy Wikipedia

I could move the head and hand with controls in the studio. The jaw responded to my voice so it looked like Big Tex was talking.

I was responsible for not only the voice but also greeting visitors who called the State Fair Information line while the fair was in progress

Paul Heckmann: The Fair is open quite a bit every day. How long would you be on the ‘air’?

Bill Bragg: I would get there at 10am and start talking until 7pm for the entire run of the State Fair.

Paul Heckmann: So, things are going well. Then tell me about leaving the State Fair.

Bill Bragg: I loved that job. I really did. I loved walking the midway and posing for photos with everyone that asked. I thought God himself had sent that job down for me.

My last day was the day Big Tex burned up in the fire. I guess you could say we both left on a heated note.

(Note. At this point I had done several interviews with Bill when I got a call from Kim Bragg, Bill’s wife, that he had passed away overnight, shortly before we were to do our final interview. More from Kim, more from the recordings with Bill and a final note – from Bill… RIP Big Tex)

Fairgoers turn to social media to protest dismissal of Big Tex’s voice, Bill Bragg
Dallas Morning News, The: Blogs (TX) – March 28, 2013
Author/Byline: Eric Aasen
State Fair of Texas fans are turning to social media to express outrage that the longtime voice of Big Tex, Bill Bragg, was let go this week.

The fair decided not to renew the contract for Bragg, the voice of the folksy cowboy since 2002.

The fair said that Bragg wasn’t adhering to the terms of his contract. The fair won’t offer specifics, but it appears fair officials thought he was taking his Big Tex persona too far outside of the fair. Bragg told me yesterday that his departure partly stems from the requests he gets throughout the year to speak at charity events, where he’s introduced as the voice of Big Tex. Bragg said he forwards those requests to the fair for approval, and fair officials have allowed him to attend events in the past. But a recent request to appear at an American Cancer Society event in Coppell seems to have bothered fair officials.
Bragg said that the fair told him that he is the voice of Big Tex only during the State Fair of Texas.
Bragg said that things started to sour with the fair the day Big Tex burned down last October — a day when he was besieged with requests to speak to the media. By the time he started negotiating a new contract, his boss at the State Fair had retired, and he was instead reporting to Sue Gooding, the fair spokeswoman. He said that he and Gooding didn’t see eye to eye.
In an interview with The Dallas Morning News, Gooding declined to discuss the specific reasons behind his departure but said it didn’t involve money. She said the contract between the fair and the talent who provides Big Tex’s voice outlines “guidelines and protocol regarding the use of our trademarks.”
“The contract was to move under me for the first time. I made a decision that my responsibility is to protect our brand,” Gooding said. “All terms will be adhered to or a contract will not be issued.”
Bragg has appeared on several TV and radio stations since the news broke yesterday afternoon.
On WFAA, Bragg attributed his firing to “a personality conflict” between him and Gooding.
Bragg told KTVT this morning that his dismissal was “a big misunderstanding about what my role is. I thought I was the voice of Big Tex and they said I’m not because he’s not standing up right now. … When the fair closes, my mouth is supposed to close to.”
KXAS said that his dismissal was related to doing interviews about the Big Tex fire. Interviews “without prior consent from the fair’s public relations staff … may have been the final straw.”

“Everybody lost – I lost. The state fair lost. The biggest loss is to the people who come to the State Fair, especially the children,” Bragg told KXAS.

Some comments on the State Fair of Texas Facebook page:
  “NOT COOL!!! Fix this!!!!”
  “Bill Bragg is an amazing man full of passion for all he does. He IS Big Tex! Can’t believe he’s been fired! Bring him back!!!”
  “The State Fair of Texas should be ashamed for releasing “The Voice” of Big Tex. Why not go ahead and change the name to State Fail of Texas.” Some comments on Bragg’s Facebook page:
  “Bill, you are Big Tex and they may think they are moving in another direction, true Texans will petition the SFOT to return you to the job you love and hold dear to your heart.”
  “Oh, State Fair of Tx, what in the world are you thinking? Writing off Bill Bragg as the voice of Big Tex? Really? He IS Big Tex. Boycott? You bet.”
  “How horrible! I can’t believe they would do that. Hopefully there is a big enough outcry and they back down!”
North Texans sounded off on Twitter, too:
  “Boycott @StateFairOfTX for firing Bill Bragg, voice of Big Tex!”
  “#statefair of Texas fires the Voice of Big Tex Via email! Booooo

Bill and Kim Bragg, courtesy Kim Bragg

Kim Bragg

Paul Heckmann: Okay, here we go. I wish it were better circumstances, but Bill has left us and gone to the great radio station in the sky. Rest in peace brother.

So Kim, how did a gal in Pennsylvania meet up with Bill from Dallas?

Kim Bragg: I heard Bill on a FM radio station call letters that was a pirate radio station. And the man who was playing it would rebroadcast yesterday USA, right up the hill from the FCC. And they didn’t care as long as they didn’t get a complaint, so I had that station for like, two years. And I was up in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And I heard that they were having a radio convention in Newark, New Jersey, which was only three hours away. And, I would listen to Bill every night. I didn’t know what the station was.

And I grew up with my grandmother, so I would listen to old radio shows on her talk radio they would play bits and pieces so I knew what it was and I liked it. So, I had a habit of channel surfing on the radio at night time, and then I’d find Bill’s station. But then when I’d turn it on during the day, sometimes there was something else on there. And I wasn’t quite sure what it was.

And, I finally caught a live show with Bill and his friend Mike talking, and I called in a couple times and said hi and how I was listening and all. And then they said about the convention in New Jersey and I thought, I’m gonna go meet them and see. Meet them and see all the old radio stars that were still around at the time. This was in ’97. October ’97. And I met Bill and we started talking, and then I’d call in a couple times on the radio show, and then sometimes I’d talk to them afterwards. And then I’d come down to visit sometimes, have my vacations down here.

And then, it was about a year I guess, when I thought about moving down here and he said, “Well, why don’t you move down?” and I’m thinking, “Well, maybe I will.” So, I did. And, so I’ve been here since October 31, 1998, Halloween weekend!

Paul Heckmann: And this was here at this house?

Bill actually built a screen door, 100% inside his house to go to his General Store. That house was amazing. Courtesy Paul Heckmann

Kim Bragg: I’ve been here ever since. That’s when this house was just a regular-size house. He still had a lot of the collection, where you could hardly walk around.

Paul Heckmann: That’s Bill. It’s like I say to my roommate, he cleans off the space so he can have more room to put stuff.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, exactly. And I’d say to Bill, we want to buy something and I’m like, “Well, where are you gonna put it? We have no place.” He said, “Well, I’ll find a place.” And I’m thinking, you know, we have so many things that need to go in these places that you’re building, you’re never gonna have a place. But he still kept buying and buying and adding to the collection.

One of Bill’s prize collections of record players, Victrola’s and the lot. I think this is the one he got from Conway Twitty. Courtesy Paul Heckmann

He just loved the general store stuff and the Victrolas. And, his idol was Thomas Edison. He just loved Thomas Edison. And he got all the things he could have Thomas Edison’s stuff. And we have a mimeograph machine in there where the person would talk into it, and it would record onto a wax cylinder. And then this wax cylinder would be taken off by the secretary and put into this stereo. She’d listen to it and type and then there’s a shaver where you would take that wax cylinder, put it into the shaver, and it would take the top layer off and then they would reuse it again. I never wanted to try them, I’m afraid to break them, but they do work. And even today, a wax cylinder will still play. You know, what was it ten years ago, some CDs were made and they don’t play anymore.

Paul Heckmann: So, that was the forerunner of the album.

Bill’s prize Wurlitzer. It still plays! Courtesy Paul Heckmann

Kim Bragg: Yeah, it was. The wax cylinders were first, then it went to transcription discs. Well, here’s a transcription right here. This is the size of the transcription, and they used to be glass.

Paul Heckmann: That’s a big record. Looks bigger than the albums I used to own.

Kim Bragg: This one’s from ‘54 but transcriptions were glass, so these are vinyl now. And then they had some that was acetate that was on, and I just found one over here. It looks, the label looks great but it’s metal. It’s very interesting. The acetate has peeled off… One of these here, the acetate has peeled off and you see the metal. But it was like a metal disc, and then just the recording piece, the black stuff, the acetate has just dripped off of it or just has fallen off. But, they used to be, it was that.

And then it had the 78s, which were, what about ten inches, and they were real heavy. I remember when I was a kid I used to break them just because it was fun to do. Little did I know I’d be surrounded by them. But they would break and remind me of charcoal, just the way it would break and just crumble up and that color.

Paul Heckmann: So tell me about this house.

Kim Bragg: Well, like I said, it was regular size when I moved here. I’m thinking we started working on it in 2000? I’m thinking beginning of 2000. Yeah, and it took forever. I know we had Thanksgiving upstairs and we weren’t even moved upstairs yet. I decided to carry the meals and we had it up there, so that was in November of that year. I forget when we were finally able to move. Because Bill planned this and he drew it out on a napkin.

This train was totally setup in Bill’s house and snaked through several rooms. But by the time I got there, too many other goodies covered much of the track. But it was still operational. Took me on about a 30′ ride. Photo courtesy Bill Bragg

And then as we were going along he would think of things. Like, with the train, you have the archive in the center, and then the train, and then that wall there was just blank. And Bill said “Why don’t we do a cut-out and I can display stuff there?” Just, like, behind you. He said, “Why don’t we do a cut-out there?” And then upstairs, you go up the steps, because of the height we had to do levels here, he said, “Why don’t we make a display window?” And that part is top of the old house, so we have a display window up there and made that into a general store up there.

And it would just come and that’s why a lot of times it took longer because they would come up with – and the builders too would come up with ideas. The guys who were here every day.

Paul Heckmann: The builders must have had a blast doing it.

Kim Bragg: Oh yes. The reason this ceiling is so high, Bill might have told you, because it’s 12 feet high. And it’s because of the back bar right there. That’s one, two, three or four pieces. A lady in Fort Worth had given it to him. Last name of Pate. I know it’s a big family over there. I’m not familiar with the people there, but she had given it to him. She had turned it into a wine rack, and we didn’t drink wine. We were gonna put cars in there. Bill wanted to make a car display, which we never did, but that’s why this ceiling is 12 feet high. Probably 12 or 13 because of that.

Paul Heckmann: Yeah, how do you even move it?

Kim Bragg: Yeah, in fact the movers took a picture. The box on top is single, is a separate piece. The top piece is single, coming down. And then you got the glass door section, and then the bottom cabinet part to that. So yeah, that’s four pieces.

That’s why it’s so high, and that’s why we’re up so much higher. The two story house is now about three and a half stories. And the bottom stories are all his museum and we lived in a little apartment upstairs.

Another shot of Bill’s General Store, courtesy Bill Bragg

Paul Heckmann: It’s absolutely incredible. I wish I could just take this house and move it down to Fair Park. I really do. Without doing a thing, you’d open the doors and say, “Come on in! $10! Here’s a museum!”

Bill’s early Ford, he had built an entire service station where the garage used to be! What a treat to dig through. A lot of this was featured on a Pickers TV show. Photo by Paul Heckmann

Kim Bragg: Oh, I know, it would be wonderful. That was one of his big things. He wanted to be able to show it to people and his family and all.

Paul Heckmann: Well, didn’t he have part of his collection over like at Las Colinas?

Kim Bragg: The National Museum of Broadcasting. That was in 1990. I think he started it in ’89 and then he came down with colon cancer.

And then the man was gonna be a partner with Bill took it over. And when Bill was sick, they got rid of some stuff. They threw stuff away and I think that was the end of the museum. The VOA might even still be there, the Voice of America radio console. The last time he had taken me over there, it was still covered over and they were using it for an Addams Family display of these fake tombstones. Underneath that is this VOA console from Washington D.C. I think it came from. I think they took a semi-truck over and picked it up.

Some of the goodies at Bill’s broadcast museum at Los Colinas. It was a massive collection of all sorts of goodies. Photo courtesy Bill Bragg

And then when he lost things from the museum I know that really hurt him too, but he was able to get his own personal collection out. I don’t know if there’s any items. I think they made it to where they each kept their own thing. They were happy, I think, when they finally separated and got it taken care of. Because our friend, Mike who happens to be a lawyer, had gotten in on it and worked it out because Bill had gotten a raw deal at the time. But then he made it better. But he was able to get a lot of his own personal collection.

And people would post stuff, throwing away, he’d get them and he’d fix them all up. He’d do the cabinets over, making them look brand new. And if he could get them working if they weren’t already working. But he always knew somebody who could do whatever.

Paul Heckmann: Well, he’s one of my champion dumpster divers. He’s just like me. He’d see something there in a dumpster and it’s like, “People are throwing that away? What are the thinking?”

Bill’s former living room. You can see how high they raised the roof to accommodate his collection. He and Kim lived upstairs in an apartment he added on. Photo courtesy Paul Heckmann

Kim Bragg: Yeah, they were gonna get rid of that Big Tex statue. And then they called us and said, “Do you want that?” and Bill said “Yeah.” And so that was his first year. I remember we drove down 635 and went down to get him and drive him back. He was the Big Tex statue was lying in the flatbed of the pickup truck, arm and head sticking out of the tailgate driving back on 635. Boy did we get some crazy looks.

It has a nice wooden base on the bottom. And it won’t tip over. It’s a nice wide base.

They built it for the 50th birthday of Big Tex and they had Bill in the parade as Big Tex. So, this worked kinda perfect that they gave it to him. They were going to throw it out, but Bill said, “Heck yeah, I’ll take it.” I remember it was Saturday morning when we got the call. It was funny we had to go down and get it. We had like an hour to go down and get it so we had to hurry up and fly down to pick it up. Or it was gonna go in the dumpster.

Paul Heckmann: So we are getting ahead of ourselves a bit. Can you tell me about the Bill Bragg/Big Tex days? You move to Dallas, it’s 1998. He hadn’t started working at the state fair yet. Do you remember when he first took the job?

Kim Bragg: 2002. He auditioned in 2001, he had been the voice of Big Tex on the info line for a while at that time. We thought he was gonna get the job. They had a casting call. And I think there was like 500 people that first signed in. And then there were like ten finalists. And Bill would’ve gotten it if he spoke Spanish, but he didn’t speak Spanish.

So, the man who got the job was only there for a year in 2001. And sometime during 2001 the guy left the job and Bill stepped in.

Then the following year one of the assistants to the GM, Sue Gooding called Bill and said “You’re gonna be Big Tex next year.” and hung up. That’s all there was to it, so that’s how he finally got the job.

And so Bill learned the few lines he would have to say in Spanish, he worked with Ray Langdon, who has passed, and he taught him Spanish. How to say, “Welcome to State Fair” in Spanish. It was not very much. It was just a little bit.

“Hola amigos, bienvenidos, ala feria.” Something like that. It was kind of in my head. And that’s really all they had him say in Spanish. I don’t understand why you had to be bilingual.

Every year I’d stand in the same exact place and get Bill, when he would do the voice testing on it. The Fair would start on a Friday I think it was, and we’d start like Tuesday or Wednesday when he had it set up. And I would listen and I could tell when it was perfect because I would get this certain rumble right in my chest, so I knew it was perfect. And I’d say you gotta do more bass or less bass or more or less treble, whatever it was, to get it perfect where it sounded good.

Big Tex burning, courtesy WFAA video, “Big Tex Burning; 10 Years ago”

And that’s how he got the job until the day Big Tex burned down. Bill didn’t even know he was even on fire. Somebody from Fletcher’s Corny Dog came over and pounded on the trailer door to tell him that it was burning down. He couldn’t see because the trees or something had grown over and they had moved a food truck of him so he couldn’t see the bottom half of Tex. So, Tex started burning at the boot and smoke and all that was coming out. So, he didn’t know it. So, he was talking and the lady came over and was pounding on the door and said, “Hey, it’s on fire! It’s on fire!” and Bill thought she was bringing him a corn dog because they always would bring him a corn dog every day. That’s what he thought she was doing, so he said, “No, I’m okay right now.” And she kept saying, “No, no, no! Tex is on fire!” And then he realized what was happening.

Paul Heckmann: And he didn’t say something like through the speakers like, “Ouch! Ouch! My pants are on fire!”

Kim Bragg: No, that would’ve been funny if he would have.

Paul Heckmann: That would be something I would have said, but I have been known to say the wrong thing at the wrong time. But he’d get them fired probably a little sooner.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, probably for sure.

He absolutely loved that job. He would have done if for free if they had let him be Big Tex all year. He could really do the DJ school voice when he wanted to. But for the Big Tex, that was his voice in the microphone. He didn’t do anything special for it at all.

Kim Bragg: That was 2012. So, that gave Bill ten years at the fair. And then he did the voice on, when you would call and listen to the recording, information, he did that for three or four years before he was even Tex, the voice of Tex out on the midway. So, he was Tex for 15 years.

Something like if you want to hear the hours you hit one. If you want to hear about the agricultural building or programs, hit two. Or, if you wanna speak to somebody in the office, hit three. That was Bill doing that. And then he would have the messages and then he would talk about who was coming, at the time and when it was ready. The concerts, the dates, and who was gonna be there.

Paul Heckmann: So, Bill had been there ten years as the official voice at that time. So, they got the new Big Tex up, and so he was there two years after that?

Kim Bragg: No, 2012 was his last. Because the day he burned, that was on a Friday, I think it was. Well, I’ll tell you, I have the paper right here. Friday, October 19th. That was the day he burned, and that was the day he pretty much got fired. Because Sue said something like “Go get your stuff, get out, and don’t come back.”

I am so angry at the fair for the way they did him. I think that started the downhill. It got him. He loved that job so much, and he loved it so much, and it hurt him so bad. I was there the day that they, she pretty much fired him the day he burnt down because I was there. You know? And she treated him like hell.

Paul Heckmann: And who is she?

Kim Bragg: Sue Gooding. Yeah, and they were friends before she became the press secretary. And then she only lasted one season at that job after working at other jobs there and then the following season all of a sudden she retired, so I don’t know what happened there. Why, but it seemed kind of funny to me.

I think it just destroyed him because he loved it. He always wanted to do it since he was a child, and he was so proud. And he always felt so bad because his mother died in 2001, she never got to see it. Every year he and his Mom would go to the fair. And folks would come up and ask him if he was Big Tex because he was 6’5 and looked like Big Tex. And he always that deep booming voice. He even offered to do it for free for a season. They wouldn’t do it.

You know, and then I know some of the things that happened behind closed doors which I can’t say, but it’s my opinion that she was waiting for a way to make it harder on Bill. I’m not sure, because he did everything they wanted. More so. And they’d want him to do things for free, and he had a contract, but he would go above and beyond what was in his contract.

But, what made me angry even before that even happened, the first year or two Bill would talk when police officers would drive by or ride their horses, y. And he’d always say ‘There goes the Dallas Police Department, why don’t you give them a round of applause?’ And people would cheer and clap and carry on and all that. And the cops would be blushing and that and they loved it. And the fair had him stop doing that.

Paul Heckmann: Why?

Kim Bragg: Because they figured, if you’re gonna give special shout-outs to somebody, then you’re gonna have to do it to everybody.

He would pick a little child out of the crowd. He could see them looking up at him and he would say something very personal to them like ‘Hey there, little podner in the yellow shirt with the cowboy hat, Big Tex is watching out for you’, and it gave it such personality. But, all that, they didn’t want him doing that.

Paul Heckmann: Well, I think that’d be so cool. I wasn’t there when he did that, but I’m sitting here thinking, “Man, I’d love to be that little kid.”

Kim Bragg: Oh yeah, you would get the biggest smiles. But then the state fair officials would have their special people and they’d come over and say, “Hey, Bill, say Hi to this person.” And then he would say Hi to them as Tex.

And then the nixed it and somebody out there would come up and say, “Hey, this is my daughter’s birthday, can you say something to them?” And he’d say, “Sorry, I can’t do it anymore.”

Because I didn’t know what Big Tex was until I moved here. And I equate him to everybody, it’s like Mickey Mouse of Texas. Everybody knows who Big Tex is here. Like everybody knows who Mickey Mouse is. That’s how I tell everybody up North about him.

And they just love the person that he was talking to them or making comments about. Just nice, general comments about people, thanking the police who were there to protect them, to make sure everything was fine. And to put out that the police are there overlooking to make sure everything was okay so they know security is there. But, they had him stop. And that made me angry. A lot of things that the fair did would make me angry over the years. And why not push that you got security? You got somebody there to look out for you.

Paul Heckmann: I would. Makes sense to me.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, because we know a lot of the stuff that makes sense to the regular people doesn’t make sense to the uppity-ups.

Paul Heckmann: So, we’ve come past Bill not working for the state fair anymore. What did he do after that?

Bill’s new job in the Carrollton/Plano area. Photo courtesy the internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Kim Bragg: Actually, during the fair he was working at EDS out in Plano, and then HP bought them. And he was there about five years.

Paul Heckmann: What did he do for them?

Kim Bragg: He was a cameraman and audio, he also redid a studio because they just had some things thrown together.

And, camera, audio, he would mic people up. People would be so nervous in front of the camera. Like, I get nervous talking. I can’t do a radio show myself; I get too nervous. He would go out and he would talk to the person and put their microphone on, whether they put in on their lapel, I guess they still do it. But, he’d say, now this is what we’re gonna do and this is how we’re gonna do it and are you okay. And he always made sure they were comfortable and he made them comfortable so they would be able to talk instead of just looking at this big eye of this camera staring you down.

And, then he would work with the talent and then he would get back there do the camera work and filming and audio and just keep tweaking things making sure things sounded good. He always, like if he was supposed to get there at seven in the morning, he would get there at six and get all the cameras with the color bars to make sure they were all perfect colors and tweak everything and have it all working perfectly.

And then when HP bought them they laid off a lot of people because what they were doing in Plano was the same thing they were doing out in California. So, when he was laid off and a couple of other gentlemen were laid off, they ended up hiring him back as a freelancer. So, he would go and do the camera work, but he just didn’t get benefits. I think they even paid him more money per hour than they were when he was working, but he had benefits when he was working there. So, he did that and then he was also working weekends at a place called Prime Media.

Paul Heckmann: I know that one.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, so he was out there with the license so he had that. And, we’d be out there on the weekends all night long we’d work, and I’d sleep on the couch in the green room, or have a – like in the one studio they had like a little setup and it was dark, I’d go in with a blanket and go to sleep in there while he was working because there was nothing for me to do.

Then sometimes he’d do camera work for T.D. Jakes at his church. He would do that, and then he’d do a TV show on PBS called McCuistion that they’d film over at Richland college. and he would do the audio work on that and make sure everything ran properly. Now, by then it was mostly computers all you had to do was flip a switch. But, he made sure everything was going, and there were other people there too. He just made sure everything was going…

In fact, he had a job booked for September, which now I guess he is not gonna make. But, he was still doing that and it kinda kept his fingers in the business and he liked it. And he was retired, but he was semi-retired and he would go do certain jobs. And he liked doing that. He’d always carry a tool bag with him of tweaking screwdrivers and voltage testers and meters and all that, to where if there was a problem, and had connectors. And if there was a problem, he would just pull it out of his bag and he’d be all set and ready to go.

Paul Heckmann: He knew what to do.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, he knew what to do. And they knew when Bill was there everything was going to be okay. He used to love doing work. He had some jobs over at AMS, had some camera work there. But he was freelancer, audio/visual for the most part.

Paul Heckmann: So, tell me, I know the last time I spoke to you guys was two or three days before passed away, we had setup our final interview. He seemed very sharp then, much like Bill did the last time I met him.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, he was diagnosed with dimentia a year ago in August, but I’m just finding out. It starts a few years before that you don’t even know. And I was so close, and here all the time with him, not picking up on things, you know about the repeating of things and the losing of things, you know he would always lose stuff. In this mess, it’s easy to lose things in this mess. But he knew where stuff was at the time, but then it got to where he didn’t know, couldn’t remember.

Paul Heckmann: Yeah, I saw that when I was here. Remember the tape that he was looking for?

Kim Bragg: Yeah, and we never did find that tape, and he got so upset and he put it away, and then he couldn’t find it. And I still have yet to find that tape. I know it’s here somewhere.

Paul Heckmann: And you’ll find it.

Kim Bragg: He got really bad in February and March. I think that was one of the days you were coming by the house to work on the Louann’s project with him. And you know, us wives, we swear that the husbands don’t listen to us anyway, or we’ll tell them something and they don’t remember. And actually he had a problem and I didn’t realize it.

Paul Heckmann: And so, now that Bill has passed away. What are you gonna do?

Kim Bragg: Well, I got to sell everything. I can’t afford to live here by myself. And I’m gonna sell his stuff and I’m gonna keep the radio station going because that’s his legacy. I always told him I would try. He said, “If you can’t don’t worry about it.” But, I’m gonna try. We have plans on moving it out to California. In fact, we were starting to work on that. I had told Bill about it, but it was mostly me and the DJs were talking about what we were gonna do. When I was out there in May, I had driven out and I had taken backups of our computers that has the program running on it so they have that out there. So, eventually it’s gonna end up out there in either Costa Mesa or, I forgot the other town up the road.

I’m planning on doing it again in November because I was wondering what to do with all these cassettes that we have with the DJs and radio shows, what to do with them. And a webmaster out there, he can transfer them for me. Instead of trying to mail them or, I can even mail them for free through, for the stuff for the blind matter or whatever it’s called because the DJs out there are blind, but you don’t know for sure if they’re gonna get the stuff or not.

Bill and Ron, the blind DJ that he knew from the Oldies radio shows. Photo courtesy Kim Bragg

Paul Heckmann: Blind, you mean blind as in ‘can’t see’ DJs?

Kim Bragg: Yes, they picked up something was going on with Bill before I even heard it. In his voice they could hear it. So, I’m gonna take the truck and hopefully my cat again and all the recordings out and a tape deck. We have 30 years, 35 years of audio recordings from the DJs.

Paul Heckmann: So, this quite they eye opening journey with Bill, for you and now for me. Is there anything you would like to add before we wrap this one up?

Kim Bragg: Oh yes, when I came down here I didn’t know what I was getting into. I just knew what I had heard on the radio. You always hear, “It was quite a ride.” It was sure quite a ride. I’ve met so many famous people. People I never would’ve thought of. Things I would have never thought I was gonna do. I never thought I’d be on the radio talking. I’m nervous talking to people that I don’t know. I’m nervous talking to you as I don’t really know you. It’s just because I’m a shy person. I’ve gotten to do so many things because of Bill. I talked to Errol Flynn’s daughter. For the people who don’t know and the young people, that’s a big movie, he was the Brad Pitt of the day in the 40s. I never thought I would do anything like that.

If there’s anything I would change, I would probably firmly say no in a lot of things instead of just letting him go and do what he wants because I know where it ended up. I would’ve been more forceful but I pretty much just let him do what he wants. I mean, you can’t stop a Texan. It’s hard to stop a Texan.

Paul Heckmann: No. We’re ornery.

Kim Bragg: Yeah, very ornery. And Texans, they know what they want and there’s no way to stop them. I love all of you guys.

I get angry because he’s gone but I miss him and I love him. And then I’m like, “Bill, why did you do this to me?” as I’m looking around at something and then I’ll get sad and then I’ll move on to something else. But, I don’t think I would change much of anything. I’m just glad I had the opportunity and the time that I had because were were together about 20 years. But all in all, I’m pretty much happy. Very much. Pretty, pretty happy.

Paul Heckmann: A little sad and a little laughter. I think that’s a good way to end there. Thanks so much for spending time with me.

(And I will leave you on an upnote, the Bill Bragg that I had come to know, with Big Tex hisself, he of a wink and a nod. From one of our recordings.)

Paul Heckmann: Bill, I noticed that you are a member of a few organizations. I am going to read this list out loud to give folks an idea of what I am speaking of.

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 1257
The Society of Broadcast Engineers Dallas
The Society of Broadcast Engineers Tulsa
The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers
Audio Engineering Society of America
The Radio Club of America, Inc.
The Technical Club of Dallas
International Television Association
North American Radio Archives
Dallas Communications Council
Dallas Amateur Radio Club
Irving Amateur Radio Club
Vintage Radio & Phonograph Society
American Association of Museums
Museum of Television & Radio of New York
Texas Association of Museums
N. Texas Museum Association
National Trust for Historic Preservation
Dallas Historical Society
Big Band Society of the Metroplex
National Lum & Abner Society
New England Country Music Historical Society
Houston Vintage Radio & Phonograph Society
Radio Historical Association of Colorado
The Northwest Vintage Radio Society
Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound
First United Methodist Church of Dallas
Tannehill Masonic Lodge
Scottish Rite Lodge Of Perfection
Hella Shrine Temple in Garland,
Scottish Rite Club in Richardson.

Bill, did I miss any?

Bill Bragg: Sorry, I was taking a nap. What were you saying? Could you repeat that? (laughs)

Nah, lets not subject folks to that again.

Paul Heckmann: Thank god! And that brings us to what you have been doing with all your down time!

Bill Bragg: I’m so, so glad you asked. I rebuilt my home several times. I currently have two full size 1930’s General Stores, a 1940’s two-window Post Office, a 1950’s Mobil Gas Station and a 1950’s Shop. I also have an actual amusement park train ride that runs on 300 feet of track laid throughout my house. I have a 1929 replica Model A Ford, not to mention a Wurlizter formerly owned by Conway Twitty, a slot machine, a pinball machine, a player piano and some 50 plus Edison and Victor antique phonographs, radios and television sets. Then there are about one hundred thousand sound recordings, films and videos. I used to have a 1902 wooden caboose that sat on 39 feet rail. When the neighbors complained, we sold the caboose to Heritage Park in Irving. I have an entire room for Christmas goodies that lights up during the holidays. And more projects I am working and more I am about to start on.

And that’s about all I’ve got left to say. My feet hurt.

Fin. Finito. No mas. The End.

Paul Heckmann: And very typical of the way an interview ended with Bill, no buildup, just ‘over and out’. Those were the last words of the last time that Bill spoke to me. Rest in peace Big Bill, I hope you and Big Tex are kicking back high above us having a cold one right about now.

Bill ending this rather long interview… with a wink and a nod. Goodbye my friend. Photo courtesy Bill Bragg.

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]]> https://meminc.org/billbragg/feed/ 10 1547 BUD BUSCHARDT, HE’S SUMP’N ELSE! https://meminc.org/budbuschardt/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=budbuschardt https://meminc.org/budbuschardt/#comments Mon, 19 Aug 2019 15:34:56 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1517

The second weekend that I was at WFAA, things really changed. That was the weekend of November 22, 1963. I was still in school that day and they let us out early which was something they never did. So, I asked my professor “Dan, what do we do in a case like this?" He said, “There's my desk. There's my phone. You call RIverside 8-9631 right now.”
So, I called, and actually got through the switchboard, and asked for Mr. Turner. And as luck had it, he happened to be on his way to lunch and ran into Jay Watson (WFAA Program Director) and Jerry Haynes in the lobby. Jay said, “I need studio quickly and camera live, whatever you can do.” And Turner said, “Well, what’s the big deal?” Jay said “The President’s just been shot.” And then it was absolutely crazy. I was running from studio to studio. Don said, “Strike all the studios you can."

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He’s “Sump’n Else!“

Bud Buschardt, Unit Manager of “Sump’n Else”, Producer/Director at WFAA, Oldies Show host at KVIL and Retired Adjunct Professor at UNT

Edited by Scott Mathews and Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Inc.

 
 

Paul Heckmann: Greetings my friend, so glad we were able to spend some time on this project. Bud, can you kinda tell me a little bit about where you are from and what got you interested in TV and Radio?
Bud Buschardt: You bet!
Like most of us I watched TV and I listened to radio all my life. I still remember listening to Uncle Phil and Aunt Jane on KXYZ when I was just a little guy. And when I was about 5 or 6 years old, my mother took me up to the radio station to see them.
So, I was watching the guy in the control room doing the announcing. They used to have places for you to sit in radio stations, and you could watch the shows as they were going on. That was my first experience in radio. Uncle Phil and Aunt Jane would play children’s story records like Jack and the Beanstalk.
Paul: Cool. And those experiences are the ones that stay with you all your life.
Where did you go to school at Bud?
Bud: I grew up in Houston, and I went to Lamar HS there, then the University of Houston, I’m a Houston Cougar.
Paul: Was your degree at U of H in radio and film?
Bud: Radio and television. I started out to be in architecture. Before school started I had gone to the school counselor, he said, “You don’t like math do you?” I said, “I hate math.” And he said, “And you want to be an architect? It’s nothing but math.”
The story goes that I had taken my tape recorder into a repair shop to have it fixed on my way out to the University of Houston. I happened to mention to the clerk that I was on my way to
U of H to see a counselor. And he said, “Well, I was a radio/TV major. I really enjoyed that.”
You see back in those days, you had to declare a major really before you went in, So, I am thinking radio/TV sounded kinda neat, and so that is what I told the counselor, he put me down for radio/TV.
Paul: So you could say it was happenstance; a chance encounter, at just the right shop, with just the right fella, whose specialty was repairing tape recorders, that started a half century career in radio and television.

Part of Bud’s fabulous collection

Happenstance was the driving force.
Bud: Amazing, eh? But oh man, was it the right choice for me. I loved it. I really thought it was something.
After UH, my aunt invited me to come to Dallas when I couldn’t find a job in Houston. My uncle was a doctor and they had a brand new house on Beverly Drive. So after exhausting my options in Houston I packed up and headed to Dallas. My aunt and uncle had about five cars and only two people in the family drove, so they let me use a car. And my aunt, bless her heart, would make maps for me. She said, “Now go see Mr. Mac,  he has friends at this station in Tyler. And on the way back you go over here to…”And she would kinda map out my course for the day when I was looking for jobs.
Paul: She sounds quite amazing.
Bud: Oh she was. One of those trips turned out to be pretty important. When I graduated in 1963, my mentor Dr. Tom Battin called me into his office and said, “If you ever get up to Dallas, go to WFAA. It is the most beautiful station, the most fabulous station in the whole State of Texas. Ask for Bob Turner.”
So here I am in Dallas, so I called and made an appointment with Mr. Turner who had just been promoted to assistant production manager. I went in to see him and at the end of the meeting he said, “I don’t have anything really for you right now but come back to see me.”
I was working toward my first phone license which you had to have to run a transmitter at a radio station. This guy in Waxahachie promised me that I could have the all-night shift if I’d get that license. As far as I was concerned, it was radio and they wanted me.
So, I got the license and went back to visit Mr. Turner. He told me the same thing as before. But this time I was halfway out the door, he said, “Come here a minute. Would you consider part-time?” And I said, “When do I start?” And he said, “Go see Don Reynolds right now and he’ll get you used to what we do around here.”
Paul: Wow, and just like that, you were in the biz!
Bud: Exactly, here is this kid right out of college. And you have to know that back in those days, you had to have five years’ experience before they would even talk to you. But I’d made this very important friend, Bob Turner.
And later Mr. Turner said, “Maybe we ought to think about hiring college grads for a part-time crew.” So, I called Dr. Battin back at UH, and every time we had an opening we started staffing WFAA with some of our UofH grads. Some of them have gone on to do really good things and become very successful.
I spent a couple of days during the week working there, and eventually I was promoted to working on weekends. The second weekend that I was there, things really changed. That was the weekend of November 22, 1963. I was still in school that day and they let us out early which was something they never did. So, I asked my professor who had been a newsman in the radio division of WFAA. I said, “Dan, what do we do in a case like this? Should I call or what?” He said, “There’s my desk. There’s my phone. You call RIverside 8-9631 right now.” That was the number for WFAA.
So, I called, and actually got through the switchboard, and asked for Mr. Turner.

WFAA covering the hearse procession as it heads toward Love Field

And as luck had it, he happened to be on his way to lunch and ran into Jay Watson (WFAA Program Director) and Jerry Haynes in the lobby. Jay said, “I need studio quickly and camera live, whatever you can do.” And Turner said, “Well, what’s the big deal?” Jay said “The President’s just been shot.” And Turner, thinking he was getting his leg pulled said, “Okay, I’ll see you after lunch.”
So he hightails for his office, and hears the phone ring with me on other end. “Mr. Turner, it’s Bud, they let us out class today. Do you need any help?” He said, “How fast can you get here?” I said, “Ten minutes.” He said, “Come and find me and if you can’t find me, find Don Reynolds.”
And then it was absolutely crazy. I was running from studio to studio. Don said, “Strike all the studios if you can.” Everything was on wheels, so it wasn’t really that hard. One man could pull a set in or out. And, so, I struck Studio C which was set up for the Julie Benell Show. Her set had a music room, a kitchen and a patio room. Since everything was on wheels, when you put the sets back in a storage bin, the studio would be empty.
In Studio A they had it set up for Mr. Peppermint, the kiddie’s show. And that was a gigantic set. It took up almost the whole studio. So, I struck both those studios. And then Mr. Turner said, “Just stand by because we’ll probably put you on camera pretty soon.”
Paul: Had you run camera?
Bud: Not that much. So, I took a camera into Studio A, and I practiced. And that’s the key, practice, practice, practice. And then Don said, “Oh, can you put up an interview set because there might be some people coming in that we tape in another studio – while we’re on the air live.” So, I built a set, pulled things out from the storage area, and had an interview set ready to go. So, it was like that the whole day.
Back at Studio C was Julie Benell’s cooking show. Helen Haycraft who was Julie Benell’s assistant asked for help, “Don, can Bud help me here?” And Don said, “Sure, go ahead. Go with Helen.” So, we went back to the pantry. They had this gigantic pantry for the food show. And she started pulling things off the shelves that would make a stew. Helen defrosted some of the meat that they had back in the deep freeze.
Paul: So Helen started cooking for the crew and news departments so you wouldn’t have to leave?
Bud: Yes, thank goodness. Some of us stayed straight through. Those who had no families like me stayed overnight. So that was the way it was, basically the second weekend after they put me on a regular schedule.

Bud on camera for Mr. Peppermint

Paul: So you basically jumped from being a gopher to a camera operator at this point. That was a quick jump.
Bud: Yes, and I think one of the first things that I shot was some kind of a proclamation, I just remember it being on my camera. And I looked up at the monitor and there it was, my camera shot on network TV.
Paul: That’s a good way to start the resume off.
Bud: Geez, I tell you! That was a crazy weekend. I did just about every job in the studio.
Paul: Bud, I remember hearing that Ted Cassidy, “’Lurch”’ from the Adams Family was the first reporter on the scene for the assassination.
Bud: Yes, I think so. He was on the our WFAA radio team.
Ted was a great guy, I really loved him. He was just one of these fantastic DJs at the time. I have a record there of Mr. Peppermint – the kiddie show – where he plays the part of Mister Echo or something like that because he had such a booming voice.

(Ted Cassidy comes on about the 43 and 51 minute marks)

Ted was a great guy, I really loved him. He was just one of these fantastic DJs at the time. I have a record there of Mr. Peppermint – the kiddie show – where he plays the part of Mister Echo or something like that because he had such a booming voice.

Jerry Haynes as Mr. Peppermint and Ted Cassidy as Mister Echo

Back then Don Norman did the afternoon movies. And if they had a sci-fi movie or a spooky movie, they’d dress Ted up because he was so tall and he’d come in and surprise Don or do a bit with Don. Paul, television, was so fun back in those days. Today it is just like an ironing machine.
Paul: Like Icky Twerp with those silly, goofy gorilla costumes. Today kids would boo them off the stage
Bud: Yes, indeed! And then Mr. Peppermint had all these little puppet characters. There were some great outtakes when Peppermint made a mistake. And Vern Dailey was the guy that did all the puppets, also the director of the show. But he’d get one of us to go up in the booth to direct if he had a little part to do on set like playing Muffin.
Paul: So let’s go back just a minute. You made it through the horrible days of the JFK assassination which was needless to say, your baptism under fire. Now as the dust settles, what happens next?
Bud: So fortunately for me, there was a guy on the crew who took a job at an advertising agency. So they needed someone and since I already filled in for this guy, all of a sudden I was there at the first of the year with a full-time job at Channel 8.
Paul: Right place, right time.

Tall camera, not so tall Bud

Bud: And that’s what I tell my UNT students. Volunteer. Stick your neck out. Ask what you can do. If I had not volunteered, I would have never had a job at WFAA.
And I was telling the story about a student that was in one of my classes and went to an ESPN remote. The announcer was having trouble putting his ESPN banner up, and he was the only person from ESPN. My student walked up and said, “Hey, can I give you a hand with that?” And he said, “Oh, man, sure.” So with his help, they put the sign up. My student sat and talked to him for a while, and he said “Hey, by the way, would you be interested in an internship over the summer at ESPN in Bristol?” And of course he said, “Yes.”
So, he went up to Bristol and had hopes of being a full-timer. But that didn’t happen and so he came back to school. Then on the last day of class, he got a call, and it was ESPN saying, “We have an opening. Do you want it?” And you could hear him shouting with joy across campus. Just for a student to get a job like that is fantastic. It all happened because he volunteered!
And, by the way, I don’t think I mentioned it before, but I taught at the University of North Texas for 46 years.
Paul: No kidding.
Bud: I was an adjunct professor. I’ve had so many students who’ve gone on to do bigger and better things. Originally I started out teaching television directing. And eventually they changed that course to television production so that it included directing and studio work.
One day I got a call from UNT, “Well, you wanna teach another class? Bill Mercer is retiring”. And I started teaching Radio/TV announcing. I did that for a good while. The first of the semester I taught the new directors the proper way to direct a show. There were kids coming in there with their scripts marked with fountain pens. And I said, “No, no, no, guys – Sharpie – Sharpie – you need to mark the script so that you see exactly where you’re gonna go and what you’re gonna do next.”

One of many folks to use Sump’n Else as a springboard. Joan Prather as Janet, Grant Goodeve’s wife on ‘Eight is Enough’

Paul: Let’s shelf that for a bit, and talk ‘Bud, the early years’, but we will most certainly get back to it.
Tell me about those early years including how you started work on “‘Sump’n Else”’.
Bud: This opportunity came in 1965 when Channel 8 decided to build a studio out at this new shopping mall way out in the country. They had built it across from the Caruth’s property – folks were saying they were crazy to

The Away We Go production team. Top left to right: Mort Salowitz, Jim Rowley, Ron Chapman, Ray Plagens and Bobby Brock First row: Ed Gepp, Bud Buschardt and Bob Cardenas

build a mall that far out of town. Of course that was NorthPark. WFAA built their studio right as you went in the main door.
What was so cool was that Ron Chapman had been a DJ, and all of us on the crew liked rock and roll so we learned how to do music programming from Ron. After a while he had so much to do that he let us program all the music that was on the show.
And if we had guests or if we had met people who were in a band that were pretty cool or we had interviewed or gone out and auditioned a band, we’d tell Ron, and he’d say, “Okay,  if it’s good for you guys, bring them on in.” And so we got to audition a lot of the local talent that we used on “Sump’n Else”
In the morning, we had this dog of a show called “’Away We Go”’, oh, it was a turkey, but it was an excuse to work out the kinks in the studio.
Paul: Oh, what was the concept of “’Away We Go”’?
Bud: Well, it was a show for women and shoppers at NorthPark. They’d come into the studio, and we’d send some of them out on a wild goose chase. The show was kinda a cross between a snipe hunt and a scavenger hunt where the contestants would go look for items in different stores. Now, at Woolworth’s, you’ll find this or over at Cullum and Boren you’ll find that.
Paul: Of course, NorthPark was all behind it because it showed all the stores and everything in the mall.
Bud: Exactly.
Paul: So about this time you’ve graduated to Unit Manager of the NorthPark studio and our favorite show “Sump’n Else”. Tell me about some of the groups you had on
Bud: The Five Americans were really big there. And we introduced a group called the 13th Floor Elevators out of Austin. They were our house band for I think either two or three weeks at one time. They were a crazy bunch and so much fun.

The Five Americans on “Sump’n Else” courtesy Mike Rabon

When someone tells you, ‘he wrote the book’, well…Bud did just that. Click on this photo to grab a copy from Amazon

If anyone had a hit record and they were in town, we would always get them on the show. Some of the other regular groups were Kenny and the Kasuals, The Briks, Mouse and the Traps and so many more that are listed in my book “The Sump’n Else Show”.
Paul: Did you ever have Kirby St. Romain on there?
Bud: Oh, yes, he was with Scotty McKay back then. I recently met the drummer for Scotty McKay. I take a rehab class at the Y and his wife was in the class. I went over to their house and I reconnected with Roger Guckenheimer who went by Roger Bland in those days. Scotty would hang out at the studio a lot because he had known Ron from the days at KLIF when Ron was a DJ doing record hops. If Scotty had a band, he’d bring them in and Ron would have them play live. Those were the most fun days of my life as far as working in television.
Paul: Doing “Sump’n Else”.
Bud: Yep, doing “Sump’n Else”. Jim Rowley was the director, Bob Cardenas and Ed Gepp were the cameramen.
Paul: So things are rolling along at “Sump’n Else”. Life is good. You got all these really cool bands coming through. Now things are happening for you. But you have to move on at some point. What was your “Sump’n Else” swan song?
Bud: Oh, that was kinda sad, but it was part of the business and how I got ahead. One of the directors had left Channel 8, and I was in line for the next directorship. So, I left the show in the summer of 1966. I’d still go over to the “Sump’n Else” studio on my days off. I did the news on the weekend and church services. That was how they broke in a director. You got to do church services and then the weekend news.
And we went to a different church every four weeks A Baptist one week, a Presbyterian the next week, Methodist, etc.

The Dumont Telecruiser after a lot of refurbishing by Chuck Conrad and the Texas Broadcast Museum https://texasbroadcastmuseum.com/

And it’s really funny because the van that we did all the directing out of was an old Dumont van. Chuck Conrad tracked it down and found it a few years ago. It was in horrible condition. Someone had pulled out a lot of the old television stuff and it was sitting there rusting.
He bought it for hardly anything, and now he’s fixed it up, and it’s beautiful. He has it at the Texas Broadcast Museum.
BTW – I saw you mentioned Chili’s in one of your interviews. I was there the night it opened.

 

Letter to the Chordells from Ron Chapman to confirm their appearance. The rumor is van Dyke turned up feeling no pain. By the end of a very slurred segment, Chapman is screaming for the producers to bring the Chordells back on for a second number.

Paul: Of course, that was Larry Lavine’s place. I interviewed him for the Louanns’s article.
Bud: Larry told me one day “Let’s go record hunting. Take me record hunting!.”
So, I’d introduced him to the record wholesale house bars. And we went out and programmed the first jukebox that was in the original Chili’s on Greenville at Meadow.
Paul: Love it!

Don Henley’s band ‘Felicity’ in front of Honest Joe’s Pawn Shop

Bud: I remember some years later, long after Sump’n Else had left the airways, Ron Chapman had a recording session where he was doing an announcing job. And somebody said, “Ron, there’s somebody in the studio here who’s finishing a session and he wants to see you.” And Ron said, “Oh, okay, I’ll finish this first.” And when he finished, turns out it was Don Henley.
Paul: Oh my gosh!
Bud: And he said, “If I had known that, I would have finished a little bit earlier.” And they started talking and he said he had the best time. Don said ‘You know we used to appear on “Sump’n Else”? Ron said, “What was the name of your group?” And he said, “Well, I’ll tell you. We liked being on TV so much that we would change people and change the name of our group so that we could keep getting on your show as a new group.” So, that’s how Henley’s band Felicity got on the show
Paul: Jerry Smith was with Kenny and the Kasuals back in the day. He and a few other folks were telling me about their Don Henley days. They would all show up at the Studio Club during the day to try new material or check out a new band member or simply just goof off. Larry would tell them, “Yeah, you can go on and practice during the day. No problem at all.” They’d show up, turn the volume up all the way and see who could blow out the speakers.
Bud: That’s really funny because at lunchtime back when we were doing “Sump’n Else” show, we would go and watch Jimmie Vaughan practice. I remember Cardy telling me at the time “This guy is going to be big someday.”
He was just practicing alone by himself at a club when we went over there to see him one day. Yeah, so, it was like, you never know.
Scotty McKay wrote “Here Comes Batman” in the control room at “Sump’n Else”. He heard promos running about the show on ABC Television. And I said, “Oh, here. They just happened to send us a copy of the theme song.”

Scotty McKay thanking Bud

He said, “Let me hear it. Let me hear it.” He listened to it, and then he sat down, wrote all the lyrics to Batman, grabbed Kirby St Romain and then ran over to a recording studio and they got the group together and recorded “Here Comes Batman.”

I played on the show with The Jades from Ft Worth two times. We had a record out called Sha La La La Lee. Also once with John Fred and the Playboys when they had Judy in Disguise out around 1967. It was a lot of fun.

James Stennis of The Jades.

Paul: Isn’t that amazing?
Bud: Yeah.
Paul: You have some great memories there my friend.
Let’s get back to the “‘Bud Show”’ though. So, you leave “Sump’n Else”, go back to work running the church shows
Bud: Yes, it wasn’t too long after I left that they decided to end production on “Sump’n Else”.
So, they had a dinner for all of us – even I was included because that was the announcement that WFAA-TV wanted to become a news channel. And the consulting firm said, “You can’t lead into the newscast with a teenage show.” And we all said, “Wait a minute. This is crazy.”
We were in one television set per house back in those days.

Ron Chapman with the group ‘Those Guys’ performing in the TV studio Summer 1967.

What teen viewers would do is turn on the “Sump’n Else” show, then the world news or something like that would come on right afterwards, maybe national news, I don’t remember who was on “Sump’n Else”. But, again, the television was sitting there, the mother would be cooking or fixing supper and the television would stay on that same channel.
Yeah, we tried to explain that to the consultants, but they just didn’t buy it. Channel 8 had hired them to do that.
Paul: Oh, I see.
Bud: The consultants came up with some really brilliant things like Channel 8 couldn’t decide what color to paint the new cruisers. And the consulting firm were told them to take the big remote truck. “Paint it white and put orange wheels on it. And here’s our $10,000.00 bill.”
But the consultants did not think that they teenage show would do well leading into a newscast.
Paul: Ha! Makes perfect sense.
Was that kinda at the end of “Sump’n Else” at that point?
Bud: Yeah, that was it, and that was all. It was over.
Paul: Wow.

Bud snagged the turntables from Sump’n Else. And he is available for parties!

Bud: But to be fair. the station had places for everybody on the crew. In fact, what they were gonna do is – they saw that we were beginning to do a lot of production.
Now, visualize this. We were one of the only color video sorts of places. Channel 5 was color. We were color, but we were doing commercials. And, so, they decided they were gonna put together a production crew specifically for that.
Ron Chapman had this offer from KVIL. They were gonna change owners and he knew the new owner. He knew exactly what he was going to do and started work reprogramming KVIL in their big studio.
Paul: Okay, so let’s go back to Bud’s career. You had left “Sump’n Else” and you’re still at WFAA directing the church remotes.

Bud in the backroom on WFAA. The amount of equipment it took to produce a show was incredible.

Bud: Well, the next thing was actually doing weekend news which was kind of a do-it-all because they had a short crew on weekends. And, so, I was directing the news. And that was back in the days when we didn’t have technical director. We didn’t have robotic cameras. We didn’t have any of the trash that we have today. But I would literally sit there with the news script by my side and turn the pages and run the switcher at the same time.
Paul: A switcher?
Bud: A video switcher, that’s how you punch the cameras between video sources.
Paul: Gotcha.

Legendary reporter Murphy Martin and Bud Buschardt interviewing the great Charlie Pride

Bud: I’m sitting there basically saying “and roll film” to myself.
Paul: Did they have teleprompter then?
Bud: Yes, we did, but they were very crude. The typewriters would type print in about an inch of type. And, so, you’d have to sit up there – And on these typewriters, you couldn’t go fast. It was click, click, click, click, click. So, it was a real pain to do teleprompter back in those days. So, we didn’t use them on newscasts.
Really not at all until the character generators came in to use.
Paul: You were the original one man show!
Bud: Indeed we were. Anyway, after doing the weekend gigs I started directing commercials. Jim Rowley was the commercial director. Tommy Johnson was producer. We had enough clients that we could spend time with a client preparing them for their next session. I shot 7-Eleven commercials for I guess about a year and a half, two years, something like that with Bob Stanford. There’s another great story for you.
Stanford was so creative and just wonderful to work with.
Paul: I knew him from my talent days doing commercials and training videos for Southland.
About what year would this be?
Bud: Seventies. It would be in the ‘70s.
And then Jim Rowley eventually came back from NorthPark and took over the 7-Eleven contract and they had me going out with salesmen. I had this talent of being able to sit down and talk to you if you were my client. ‘So, tell me, Paul. What about your business here? What are the selling points here?’
Paul: Sure.
Bud: What do you want me to know about Lacy’s Pipe and Tobacco? I didn’t smoke, but that was one of my clients. And he’d say, “Well, we have Thursday nights as family night and duh, duh-duh, duh-duh. So, the salesman would start talking to the client. I’d go off to another part of the building, take his words, and write a commercial and come back. And I’d say, “Well, how does this sound?” I did on-the-spot writing of commercials.
Paul: Wow. That’s some talent.
Bud: And that was back when we had little family companies other than a few biggies like Titche’s and Sanger’s, we did a lot of those commercials. But then we were interested in Lacy’s Pipe and Tobacco and Mama Joan’s two pizza parlors. What we were doing was developing clients who had probably been on radio but bringing them to TV. Benavides Mexican Restaurant comes by and he says, “Bud, I’m bringing you a whole bunch of food. Now, make this crap look good.”
Paul: Oh, man.
Bud: So, we would do something like put the dishes on a turntable and have the thing spinning around there.
I did that for a while, and then I just did several other jobs at Channel 8. And I’d been through just about every position that I ever really wanted to when – I decided to try something different.
There was a restaurant/club that opened up on Greenville called TGI Friday’s. They wanted to do oldies on the weekends, on Sundays. And they wanted to borrow the records from me. And Ron Chapman said, “No, I don’t think so. You need to hire Bud to be the DJ.” So, all of a sudden I am a DJ. at Fridays. And that’s how I got my start back into radio. I’d done radio in college, but I told myself, whatever job came first was what I was going to do. That’s where I was meant to be.
And isn’t it funny because there are so many radio people who wanted, actually who’d give you anything…“Oh, can you get me in a TV spot? I wanna be on camera.” And my career worked just the reverse. I started out in television and then ended up in radio. It’s really crazy, but that’s where it took me.
Radio was another accident. We had a new guy came in, Ira Lipson who was the program director for WFAA AM, and he converted it to music radio after a New York station. And that’s what we were in Dallas – music radio. And he also created KZEW-The ZOO. That was the first underground station that did anything in DFW.
Paul: Sure.

When artists were coming in for interviews on KZEW-FM or WFAA-AM, the deejays would always be hunting Bud around the building (no cell phones back then). He was our Music Man…respected for his VAST knowledge’.

Jan Gentile, former Playboy Bunny and KZEW personality

 

Bud: So, Ira was walking down the hall one day, and I joined him. He had been talking to me about doing an oldies show, but it never really turned into anything. Then Bobby Darin died. And I said, “Ira, would you like for me to go home and put together some bios and bring some records and give to your night DJ?” And he said, “Just a minute.” He went into the studio. And I was standing out in the hall wondering what the heck was going on. He came back out, and I said, “Well, what do you think? Do you want me to help Terry with the show?” And he said, “You and Terry are on at 9 tonight.”
So, there again was the volunteering that eventually led to my getting a radio show for a couple of years on music radio. And that was called 57 Nostalgia Place.
Paul: Wow.
Bud: And I really didn’t have that much experience in radio, but just being able to tell people about the artists and what they did along with what time frame they did it got me that gig.
But now in this day and time, if you capture a young audience like my students at North Texas I guess who were mostly in their 20’s, a tune will hit their ear and they’ll continue to listen to that. But if you tell them how old that record is, it turns them off.
Paul: Never really thought about that
Bud: That’s also what radio studies have shown that. And you don’t find a lot of oldie stations pinpointing the exact day anymore, at least in my circle of friends who do oldie shows across the country. But that’s another story. I was there for about three years before the format changed to News Talk. And then eventually it went back to oldies and then to news talk again. And then Belo sold the station. They wanted to get out of radio and sold the station, and that kind of wraps up my career at Channel 8.

One of Bud’s sidegigs, stump the musician in Buddy Magazine. Courtesy of the artist Steve Brooks

Paul: What year would that be?
Bud: I guess that would be about 1981. And I’d done so many jobs there. My last job was producing commercials that ran on the air during drive time on about five or six radio stations. We would send feeds to different stations to hit the people in the cars on the way home. And I produced all of those – put the music, sounds, and everything together. And that was my last real job, and it was what I loved.
Paul: So, what’s the post-WFAA stage for you?
Bud: The next stage? Ron Chapman once again, he had been with KVIL for a while. He called me, “I just had a survey that our target audience of women want their oldies but goodies on weekends.” And he said, “I’m thinking about doing a show, would you be interested?” And, “Sure, when do I start?” And I started without even knowing the audio board. Steve Eberhart, was my cohort, my partner in crime and my audio board operator. Ron wanted me to learn the board and be able to carry it. And, so, I did the “Oldies But Goodies Weekend Show” for the next 10 years on KVIL.
Paul: Wow.

 

Bud knows so much about music it’s scary. His vast collection of 45’s? He can tell you what’s on the B side of every hit. That’s encyclopedic. I had never heard the difference between CD’s and vinyl, and thought he’d appreciate my purism about the latter. He proceed to load up the same track on both media, and seamlessly segued the same track from one to the other over the headphones he handed me. The second sample was the CD, and it felt like my head expanded. Great guy too. We met because of The Texas Music Association, and even worked a little on one of their showcases together. A Master of Musicology if ever there was.

Daryl Sprout – Performer, Speaker, Entertainer

 

Bud: About the same time, there was this Satellite Music Network that they had an idea that you could feed the signal up to the satellite and sell it to stations all over the country and customize it for each of those stations. So I’m on the air in Brownsville, on the air in Madisonville and all over the country without ever having to leave the studio.
Their system made it sound like I was in that city. That job was starting about the time that KVIL got the Dallas Cowboys contract. And when do they play most of their games? Sunday afternoons.
Paul: Nah, they didn’t!

 

Bud Buschardt is the radio and TV expert in Dallas-Fort Worth. I first met him at ABC Radio Networks around 1989, and he showed me his huge (200k+) record collection. I had never seen anyone with such an extensive record and tape collection, very impressive. Bud was born in Houston, and moved to Dallas after getting his Broadcasting degree at the U of H in 1963 to become part of the studio crew at WFAA-TV, which covered JFK’s assassination. He worked with local radio legend Ron Chapman as floor manager/assistant director for the “American Bandstand”-like local hit music show “Sump ‘N Else” from 1965 to 1968. Along with Samuel Sauls he authored the illustrated book “The Sump ‘N Else Show”, detailing Ron Chapman’s full career, and production highlights of the now legendary TV show. In 1972, Bud became an Adjunct Professor (now retired after 46+ years) at UNT, teaching various aspects of Television production. In radio, he was the first oldies DJ in North Texas, on WFAA-AM. He later produced the KVIL Oldies show, then ABC where I met him in 1989. He did the Night Train syndicated oldies show on the “Heart & Soul” format and later became Program Director of the “Stardust” super soft oldies format. In 2010 Bud was deservedly inducted into the Texas Radio Hall of Fame (he’s a chairman there now). Bud is DFW’s ultimate musicologist, a title richly earned!
-Jim Zippo, 98.7 KLUV Host and Personality

 


Part of Bud Buschardt’s fabulous audio collection, courtesy of his good friend Murphy Martin
Bud: Yep, they did. My show was at 10 till 2 on Sundays.
We could have probably created something like a tailgate party. But at the time, I quite literally lost my voice.
Paul: You mean your vocal chords?
Bud: Yeah, they were kinda frozen, really just totally paralyzed. I don’t know exactly what it was, but it was misery.
Fortunately, I got my voice back thanks to Dr. Kirkham, Carol Dearing was my voice coach. She said I had to start all over again, Paul, it was horrible
Paul: Oh I cannot imagine.
Bud: I started at Satellite Music Network and I did not have a voice. So I would produce the show. I was on three of their networks. I was on their black oldies network which was called “Heart & Soul”. And I did their early oldies we’d go back to the ‘40s, Louis Jordan and a lot of those guys who eventually were doing things that looked/sounded like rock and roll. And it was from the mid ‘40s till soul came in the mid ‘60s. We got into Aretha Franklin and James Brown

Bud in his midday slot at Stardust

Robert Hall who was vice president of the network heard my show on KVIL, and he said, “I want that on StarStation at night. Can you do that?” So the show I did locally on KVIL was the same one I used on their nationwide StarStation using basically the same script.
Paul: So, tell me about StarStation.
Bud: It was one of the five or six formats that Satellite Music Network offered their clients. We had Z Rock which was the underground loud hippie freak music stuff. And we had an oldies format. We had the black oldies format. We had jazz – smooth jazz types, contemporary hits of the day. I think there were about five or six. They had a country format. Then I eventually became program director for “Stardust”, we ran the gamut from big band all the way up through Neil Diamond.
Then there was a rumor that the Chicago office was going to go union.
So, John Tyler, president of the network immediately converted our production rooms into studios so that these guys could come down from Mokena to be in our building, for the ones who wanted to come to Dallas. And then eventually we were sold to ABC Radio. And we became ABC Radio in Dallas. Later we were owned by Disney. And we had about 10 formats including the Tom Joyner Show and Radio Disney. All of that was in our building over off Montfort. We were originating programming for all over the country.
We had a beautiful building there. It was really a nice place to work. It was really, really finished top-notch. And then about the time I retired in 2007, ABC wanted to get out of the radio except for ESPN and Radio Disney. Citadel bought them.
I was at ABC for 18 years.
Paul: So, you are tell me a bit more about your teaching career
Bud:  And of course here’s where volunteering enters the picture again.
Dr. Ed Glick who was chairman of the RTVF department of what was then called North Texas State University. He would bring his classes for tours at Channel 8. And for some reason or another, I got to be the tour guide at Channel 8 in addition to my regular duties. And it was something I volunteered for because I love talking to kids
Paul: Sure.
Bud: I talked to Glick’s classes a couple of times. As I mentioned before, my mentor at the University of Houston was Dr. Tom Battin, his wife, was also a doctor. Every time that she would have a convention up here or something to do, Dr. Battin would come and stay with me and watch me direct and do show prep.
So, one day, I jumped into the control room. Dr. Battin was sitting there with me. And we did, “Floor check, camera check, camera one here, camera two here, camera three here.” And I heard “Bud, aren’t you gonna ask about your floor director?” And so I looked down there, and I said, “I know this voice.” He said, “It’s Ed Glick.” And I said, “Dr. Glick, what are you doing down here?” And he said, “Well, we came up for the summer, I wanted to learn what you guys were doing and what is contemporary so that I can take some of the ideas back to school.”
And I don’t know too many professors who would do that.
Paul: Yeah, the Professor is taking lessons from you.
Bud: Yep.
Dr. Battin was sitting next to me, “Is that Ed Glick? Dr. Ed Glick?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Oh, we know each other from somewhere.” And it just so happened that I had a long lunch break. And, so, Dr. Battin, Ed Glick, and I went out to lunch at the Brass Rail – great restaurant. That was usually our Channel 8 hangout. We knew Malcolm the waiter and he knew exactly what we wanted. I can hear him now “You want chicken-fried steak today, don’t you?”
Anyway, so, we were at lunch, and Dr. Battin said, “So, Ed, when are you gonna hire this guy to teach a class?” And Ed said, “Well, I think I have something coming up in the spring.” And that was how my teaching career began.
Back then we had some pretty old black and white cameras, as this was a new thing for NTSU.  They were trying to piece together equipment from stuff they had gotten from different television stations.
One of my students came up to me after announcing class one day, and he said, “My dad and I used to sit and watch Verne Lundquist together. We always watched everything that he did.”
Paul: Oh man, I loved that guy. What a delivery, just so smooth.
Bud: So this student said, “I would give anything to talk to Verne Lundquist.” So, I sent an email up to Verne, and Verne said, “Have him contact me at this number, and we’ll set up a time. So, they set it up, and the kid came back to class, and he said, “Man, I cannot believe that.” “Thank you so much,” he said. Verne had laryngitis that day, and he could only talk for a short time. But my student didn’t care, he said, “Bud, that was the best thing”
There are so many people in this business that you’ve run across who are egotistical, pompous – whatever, but then there are others in the business that are just great like Verne.
Paul: And now that you’ve brought that up, egotistical, pompous and others that are great – I’ve heard quite differing stories of Ron Chapman. Some paint him as a pompous jerk, then others saying ‘I loved that guy, he

Ron Chapman interviewing Sonny and Cher on “Sump’n Else”

taught me everything I know.”
Bud:  And both could be correct depending on the situation. He certainly taught me a lot about radio and programming.
The great thing about “Sump’n Else” was that Ron had the experience in radio and programming, and also how to promote things. And while he was busy doing all of that, he left what records we played up to us.
Paul: Sure.
Bud: But at that time, he did not know television. He counted on us to make the show look good and kept him on cue and on time
Paul: Well, he must have done a great job because people are still glowing about that show from all these years later.
The way I remember him was what he contributed wherever we were. He would let you do your job if you knew what you were doing. He respected Rowley and Rowley’s directing, and the decisions that we made. Then he would add something like ‘Let’s put the go-go girls here today, and let’s put you down here’. That was Ron.

Bud and his good friend Ron Chapman

Once we learned how to pick the music to what the kids could dance to, we did that. But he was entirely different when I worked for him at KVIL. They would have meetings when somebody would get chewed out by Ron. As soon as Ron would leave for the day,  everybody who was left standing had a great big group hug. His tongue could quickly turn into a razorblade but he did that in order to make us to work harder and become better.
But let me tell you this. In the control room, we had a light right above us – a red light that connected to the phone. And this is how serious Ron was. He listened to that station all the time. And one summer I was doing a show on summer songs and Beach Boys and all this kind of lighthearted music.
Paul: Sure.
Bud: And then the hotline rang. And it was like a light that they have on the meat to keep it hot at the store. That’s the way we kind of envisioned it. I thought, “Oh, my God. What have I done?”
Paul: God is calling.
Bud: Exactly, he was calling down from Heaven. It was Ron, and he said, “Hey, I just wanna tell you, man. This music is great. We’re sitting out here by the pool. And it – this is just working great.” “Thank you.”
Paul: And that’s all he wanted to tell you.
Bud: Yep. A call from The Man!
Paul: So, I heard Ron is not doing too well these days.
Bud: I talked to Jack Schell yesterday, and he said he’d been talking to Ron and that Steve Eberhart went out there about two months ago and had lunch with him. He said that Ron
looked better now than he has looked in a long time.
Paul: This has been fantastic Bud. What a great snapshot of Dallas history. I can see why your students love having you as their teacher and thanks so much for your time. I thank you and Memories of Dallas thanks you!

Bud at his current control booth which is strategically situated close to both the kitchen and the john

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]]> https://meminc.org/budbuschardt/feed/ 7 1517 A STARCK REALITY, THE GREG McCONE STORY https://meminc.org/gregmccone/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=gregmccone https://meminc.org/gregmccone/#comments Fri, 09 Aug 2019 19:29:44 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1492

"Well, I am bringing up issues of concern but at the same time, I'm being hired to implement what it is they want to do." So, I said to them, "I don't know how you're gonna get a $10.00 cover charge or how six toilets are gonna take care of 2,000 people on a Saturday night, I've alerted them to my concerns. Now it's my job to figure out how to make it work."
Now, Phillipe Starck's answer was, "This will be no problem. The men will use the ladies, the ladies will use the men's" and that's exactly what happened.

The post A STARCK REALITY, THE GREG McCONE STORY first appeared on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

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Greg McCone, John Fry and Blake Woodall

A Starck Reality

Greg McCone’s journey from swashbuckling pirate to GM of Dallas’ grandest club’

Interview by Paul Heckmann

Paul Heckmann: Hi Greg. Thanks so much for inviting me over.

Greg McCone: You bet. I really enjoy your interviews.

Paul Heckmann: Greg, can you tell me a little bit about your history in Dallas?

Greg McCone: I moved to Dallas in the seventh grade. I went to parochial school, St. Monica on Walnut Hill Lane, and then later Jesuit for four years and went to college at Tech and then at North Texas. I didn’t really find that I was that comfortable in that scenario, so I ended up going to work. I opened the Sears Valley View store and worked for four or five years there in commission sales. That kinda got old, their commission structure changed and I was anxious to move on.

I had a friend that worked at Steak and Ale and said, why don’t you come over here and be a waiter? At 25 years old, I was not highly interested in it because it involved wearing buckles on my shoes, puff pants and scarves and looking like an English pub guy. I did take the job and, on Day 1, I loved it. I stuck money in my pocket at the end of every day and within a week I had learned to eat my steak medium rare charred instead of well done.

The original margarita machine

Very quickly, I became a bartender at Steak and Ale and worked there in the daytime and not too long after I moved to Mariano’s at night. Mariano had opened maybe a year or two earlier but he had maybe not invented the frozen margarita mixes yet but applied a Slurpee machine to make frozen margaritas en masse.

Paul Heckmann: And that’s the one that sits in the Smithsonian?

Greg McCone: That is the one that now today sits in the Smithsonian. I’m sure it’s probably a Slurpee machine from a 7-11 somewhere.

My brother, Tom, and I were two of the bartenders and at this time, Mariano’s bar was just blowing and going. A lot of Latino business, South American, and great Latino bands. And we were serving upwards of 50-60 gallons of margarita a night. Unfortunately you have a 5 gallon machine and so you use it up and all of a sudden you’ve got 30 minutes where you don’t have anything. So, we came to the conclusion that the right choice was to have two machines.

Paul Heckmann: Sure.

Greg McCone: So, we ended up doing that. And business just exploded. But along that time, the Getty family decided to open some restaurants in Dallas and so they opened Pepe Gonzalez on Greenville Avenue, two Captain Cooks restaurants and Don the Beachcomber. I went to work as a bartender there, had a great job bartending Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday night from 4:00 p.m. to midnight and I’m off the rest of the week so it was pretty comfortable. I got to play a lot of golf and enjoy life, but at a certain point, I decided to sort of jump off the top of the bartending ladder and on to the bottom of the management ladder.

Paul Heckmann: Oh, ya dummy! (laughing)

Greg McCone: One day, I was a bartender working 21 hours a week and the next day, I had 85 employees and I am working 104 hours a week for half the money.

Paul Heckmann: Oh, my gosh. That is management.

Greg McCone: Yeah. But what happens is you very quickly find out what you are made of. I guess my management expertise jumps right up because I look around and find that the main thing your employees are looking for from a manager is an answer. I’ve got this problem, what do I do about it? If you give me an answer, it is a done deal, but if you just blow me off or give me a lame answer, nothing gets done. So, if nothing else, I’ll give you an answer, no matter what the subject is. I might be wrong and I’ll know better the next time, it came down to trying to make everything work right.

And so, ultimately, what happened was I spent about eight months with that group and then took over the Bachman Lake restaurant and ran that for four years. We probably had the biggest happy hour in the city in ’76, ’77, ’78. Southwest Airlines had just started and they were all in the bar every afternoon. We had bands from South America and Vegas show bands playing and it was great fun, but about that time, I said I’m gonna go see if I can do what I do in a place that I don’t know anybody. So I left and moved to Houston and took over and ran a private nightclub down there for about two years. Houston was the home of Elan’s and they were our main competitor. Saturday Night Fever was in all the theaters and John Travolta was over at Gilley’s filming Urban Cowboy. One year later all these clubs couldn’t tear down their mirror balls fast enough to be replaced by longhorns, mechanical bulls and rope.

Abby and I had gotten married shortly after my move to Houston and I guess we missed Dallas so we moved back and I started running the restaurants at the Amfac DFW airport hotel.

After working half a dozen different places, I got involved with a group that wanted to rebuild the Ambassador Hotel downtown. I was the food and beverage director and we got to the point of everything being bought, furniture, kitchen equipment, china/glass/ silver and these guys went into bankruptcy. So, they kept me on board, paying my salary, while they tried to come out of bankruptcy and in the meantime, I started doing consulting work around the Southwest. I went to Baton Rouge and spent a couple of months down there helping set up Drusilla Seafood Restaurant, which I understand is still open today. The other employee that the owners of the hotel kept on staff through the bankruptcy was a sales director who was from California, and her cousin was a girl named Christina de Limur who was working with Blake Woodall with a new concept club, the Starck Club.

Dallas Brewery ad

The Brewery – strangely enough the building named The Brewery was never actually a brewery during the late 1800’s. Through the efforts of the writers of ‘North Texas Beer’ (paraphrased); ‘Dallas Brewing Company existed at the present day location at 703 McKinney building around 1890. However nothing is left of the original structures once Prohibition hit, save a 50ft artesian well and a wall that was left exposed inside the Newport Restaurant. The four story building known as The Brewery was built in 1925 for Morgan Warehouse and Industrial, who was owned by the same folks behind Dallas Brewing Company. Once Newport’s and Draft Picks closed in 2011, the well was capped for liability reasons.’

This would have been around 1982 and Drew asked if I was interested in interviewing for that job and I said, I would be more than happy to and went and interviewed with Blake Woodall. He gave me the business plan and the blueprints and said, come back in a week and Philippe Starck will be here and we’ll all three sit down and go over it. So, that’s what happened. I met with Starck and Blake.

Philippe Starck has put together some magnificent structures but that doesn’t mean he knows the intricacies of a working bar.

Ashai Breweries in Japan, a Starck creation

There were some issues that I brought up about the blueprints to start. Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? There were some issues about the business plan that I brought up to Blake. How do you think you’re gonna get a $10.00 cover charge. Maybe a year later he said do you know how you got the job and I said no. He said, you’re the only person that asked me questions. The other three, four people I talked to said, yeah, I can do all these numbers. No problem. You went in and questioned how this was going to work.

Paul Heckmann: (laughing) Ha! As an old bar guy that has dealt with folks building clubs without ever having worked in one, I can imagine.

Greg McCone: As an example, these bars are gonna be marble. They’re terrazzo. They come up out of the floor. Well, if you have four bars in the house and one is 43 inches and one is 46 inches and one is 40 inches and the bartender is working on that bar on Friday and this bar on Saturday, he’s used to doing this and all of sudden he’s hitting the bar top.

Or he’s going to set his glass down and it’s 3 inches lower. They’ve all got to be the same height. You know? So, I went in and I said, I want every station in the entire house exactly this way.

Paul Heckmann: Right. And all the guns and bottles exactly the same.

Starck Interior

Greg McCone: You know it. All of those things. Speed rail. Everything is gonna be in exactly the same order. I want you to be able to reach back and grab this and know where it’s gonna be Chivas without looking.

So, anyway, we still had about a year maybe, or a year and a half, of construction to go, and it was a long process. The 22,000 square feet of black marble, took four months to put in. Layers, grinding, grinding again, layer it, polish it, grinding again. On and on.

When we chopped through the floor into the basement, to put in the dance floor, there was an old still in the corner, which was removed but the whole time Prohibition Room was open the brick base platform was part of the decor.

And in the meantime, we’re choosing things like what uniform we’re gonna use and what the glassware is gonna be.

As an example, our wine list was, as I remember it, 33 champagnes. There was a house white wine in the well. There was a house red wine in the well. But if you wanted a wine list, you got champagne. And it had the house of Mumm and it had the house of Moet and it had the house of Taittinger.

Christina de Limur, Valerie Kennedy Eckardt, Blake Woodall and Chuck Durrett

Paul Heckmann: So, you are starting to work out the physical kinks of the club. Tell me about Blake Woodall.
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Greg McCone: He had been working at Vent-A-Hood, his families company, and he had worked with them getting out of college but he and his twin brother, Blair had become investors and they had worked with Shannon at 8.0. About the time they got out of 8.0, Blake made a trip to Ibiza and had decided that he wanted to do something like the international clubs he had seen. He didn’t know Philippe Starck at the time.

When you start a project like this you have your idea of what you’re gonna do but sometimes reality and timing ultimately tell you what it is gonna be, right. You may open up to be country and western and cowboy and if, all of a sudden Latino music is hot, well, guess what you’re a Latino bar now whether you like it or not. You’re not gonna turn away the money, you know? You became what you should have become.

Same thing with the club. At the time, happy hour was the biggest thing in Dallas. Nobody went out late at night. I mean, you went out late at night but it was to see live music. Papagayo probably closed at 2:00 a.m. although Papagayo might not have even been around then, but let’s say Tango closed at 2:00 a.m.

So, he’s saying I want to do this international nightclub idea and I don’t even know if I know how to do that. He has a concept of it from the late night dance clubs he’d visited and I had a real good idea of what he was talking about because I had spent a lot of time in New York City going to those clubs. So, I know in New York, you don’t even go to a club until 11:00 p.m., 11:30 p.m., 12:00 a.m.

Anyway, they were talking about happy hour. They were putting together the food menu and I’m thinking, if this is late night, the food menu is not going to work. To be honest with you, the wheel was about to turn on happy hour anyway because I think they were about to cease being, you know, Mothers against Drunk Drivers probably had a lot to do with it. In my first management job, happy hour was two-for-one and in Houston, it was three-for-one, I mean, you’re setting people up for a problem.

Philippe Starck

Paul Heckmann: That is true. And there is nothing worse for a bar than to see a bunch of patrons drunk before the night crowd comes in.

So, at this point, you had met Philippe Starck.

Greg McCone: Yeah. I met him the second week.

Philippe was an artist from the get-go. He probably wore exactly the same clothes every single day, a tattered black sport coat, tattered black pants, and a tattered grey t-shirt.

Paul Heckmann: Oh, my gosh.

Greg McCone: So at various times, both Philippe Starck and Philippe Krootchey, the DJ that he brought us from Paris, were in town. And they were in and out pretty constantly for that, let’s say, 15 months that I was involved before the club opened while the construction was going on. I really enjoyed working with him, Philippe Starck was a great guy.

And it was interesting for me in those days because it was kind of a French connection in the Brewery building. The building was owned by a Frenchman and our next door neighbor was a French cafe called, Ceret. There was nothing open in downtown Dallas after 5pm except The Spaghetti Warehouse, and it had been open for 25 years probably alone. 1965 is when North Park opened and 1965 is when downtown Dallas cratered.

We’re building in 1983 and it’s 18 years later and we’re the only other ones there after 5:00 p.m. downtown. Just us, no one else. We’re building in a warehouse that’s decades old that’s filled with clothing bales 10′ thick and next to a railroad yard that’s switching railroad engines going back and forth, back and forth all night.

Paul Heckmann: A very, very odd location, to say the least.

Greg McCone: Unbelievable. But Starck’s attitude was even better using the back of the building instead of the front of the building because people have to really want to find out where it is. To me, this is reminiscent of the New York clubs again.

Paul Heckmann: A little bit.

Greg McCone: You got to go down this alley and across the tracks.

Paul Heckmann: If you build it, they will come.

Greg McCone: Exactly.

So, what did we agree upon? We agreed upon the design. It was happening. Blake and Philippe had their issues back and forth. Philippe might want to do this and Blake would say, ‘Well, the one foot I’m gaining is not worth $60,000.00 so we’re not doing that.’

Paul Heckmann: And then you’re telling both of them neither one of these ideas is gonna work because…

Starck Club Dance Floor

Greg McCone: Well, I am bringing up issues of concern but at the same time, I’m being hired to implement what it is they want to do. So, once I’ve said to them, I don’t know how you’re gonna get a $10.00 cover charge or how six toilets are gonna take care of 2,000 people on a Saturday night, I’ve alerted them to my concerns. Now it’s my job to figure out how to make it work.

Now, Starck’s answer was, this will be no problem. The men will use the ladies, the ladies will use the men’s and that’s exactly what happened.

And then, by virtue of that, it became a club inside of a club. So, there were people who might come in at 9:30 p.m., get a drink at the bar, go into the ladies room, sit down on the couch, start talking to some of your friends, and at 11:30 p.m., when you finished your third drink, you would leave the bathrooms, go out the front door, never having gone in the club.

Paul Heckmann: So, you are building the club after working on it for a year and a half. You are moving toward the opening in 1984. What were some of the issues that came up as you got closer to that opening?

Greg McCone: Without a doubt the biggest one would have been a delay that came about because Starck had to go back to France to do the Elysee Palace, which is the French White House. They hired him to design it right in the middle of the period before we opened the club, so instead of being able to open in 1982 or 1983 as we originally wanted, it didn’t open until 1984. Starck was in France most of that period which delayed us a bunch. While there was never a hard and fast date to open, in fact, the funny line I think that Christina came up with is when the press asked when we’re going to open, we would say 90 days. Then she follows it with, we just never say 90 days from when. So, that was kind of the running joke at the time because there were a lot of unknowns when you’re renovating this really old building and you’re cutting through concrete floors 13 inches thick and structural issues and then design issues. But to be honest, almost everything other than what glasses and what liquors and what champagnes at least from a design-of-the-building standpoint, everything had been designed before I got there. It just took a year and a half to two years to implement it and put it all in place.

Jean Michel Basquiat, Dan Rizzie and Christina de Limur

A few things changed from the original design in that Starck had met and hired an artist to paint a little ring around each of the columns. We did open with Duke Todd’s art but, ultimately, a fella named Dan Rizzie who was good friends with Blake, was hired to paint over the columns. Additionally another artist named John Minyard duplicated his hands in pewter molds to hold toilet paper in the stalls. After half of them were missing within a few weeks we removed them and replace them with a concrete block with a napkin on top and a roll toilet paper. They lasted throughout the club.

Now, there were issues when a place evolves and when a place becomes more than what you think it’s gonna be and it may even change what you think it’s gonna be. To give you an idea, we were open probably six months and, “were you ever in the club, Paul?

Paul Heckmann: Yes, I was.

Greg McCone: Okay. So you know the billowing curtains?

Paul Heckmann: Right.

Greg McCone: Okay. For six months, we’ve got these framing spots in the middle of every what we called a quadrant. That was the area between each of the four columns. Some of them were just the aisle around the dance floor but the outer ones were seating areas with couches and loveseats. Everything is divided by these curtains. So, for the first six months we can make a bar or we can make a circle or a square or a parallelogram and we’re shining them on the curtains and it lights up the room because that light and the light fins that were on the columns, which made the curtains shimmer, were the only real lights in the room. There was no disco lighting at all. Zero. Okay. So, after about six months, we discovered you could put slides in these things. Why do we not know this? Anyway we put a slide in, and all of a sudden, now, instead of a white line or a white circle, you’ve got Grand Canyon on the curtain, and because of the shimmering and everything, the whole room is moving. So, this opens up a world to how you’re gonna decorate.

Suzie and Cecil

And we’ve got our own video department making videos. David Hynds and Suzie Riddle were in charge of all video production, decorations for special parties, all of the artwork for our promotions, t shirts and other memorabilia. They were also at the forefront of the Dallas Video Festival, working with Bart Weiss and almost every other video artist in the country. You must remember that video in 1984 was VHS and Beta. The club had professional 3/4 inch decks and cameras but sound and picture quality left a lot to be desired.

In the bathrooms, there are no light fixtures but walls of light from ceiling to floor. There was only an 11-inch TV over the toilet showing videos that we make, which are nonsense videos. For an example, David would lay in the back of a pickup truck and leave Dallas and Suzie would drive to Waco and he’d take pictures of the telephone lines as they went by for 200 miles. Occasionally, you’d see a bird. Crazy, you know?

Paul Heckmann: And that’s what was in the bathrooms?

Greg McCone: As soon as you opened the door, the TV came on and that video would come on.

Paul Heckmann: Wow.

But let’s put the brakes on the bathroom talk. We are getting ahead of ourselves just a pinch. Tell me about the grand opening.

Opening night at Starck

Greg McCone: Well, the opening was great. I mean, it was a full house. This ticket was $125.00 to get in. It was caviar and champagne and the Dallas Symphony Orchestra. And then about 10:00 p.m., Stevie Nicks and her whole band came out and played, just like having Fleetwood Mac right in front of you.

Paul Heckmann: Amazing!

Greg McCone: And she played for maybe 40-45 minutes. Six, seven, eight songs. And then back to just partying again. At about 1:30 or 2:00 a.m., Grace Jones came out and did four or five or six songs, I guess. About a 20-minute set. Great party. Everybody dressed to the nines. Now, that, for me, follows with the party six weeks later where we brought Grace Jones back for July Fourth. And we’re still finishing some construction. The cold bar downstairs hasn’t opened yet. We probably went to almost the end of the year before we got that room open.

So, we invite Grace Jones back. It’s 102 in the daytime. And at 6:00 p.m., everybody’s working and people calling, jam-packed, full house, not even selling any more tickets. And we can’t get the air conditioners on. I’ve got 15 of them and I can’t get any of them on. So, it’s not a central issue, as far as the units, it’s got to be water coming to them, electricity. Who knows what it is? Anyway, it is what it is.

So, you open up at 9:00 p.m. and everybody starts coming in and they’re just dressed to the nines in their chiffon dresses and such, and here’s Grace Jones.

And champagne. Our champagne glasses were $7.00 a glass, crystal. Romanian crystal. Every single glass we had was crystal.

Paul Heckmann: Wow.

Greg McCone: Right. In a 22,000-foot club with marble floors.

Paul Heckmann: Oh, boy.

Grace Jones

Greg McCone: So, everyone’s drinking champagne. And it’s hot. I’m sure people that really know Grace know she’s not gonna come on until 2:00 a.m., even if some people think she’s gonna be there at 11:00 p.m. Well, the room is getting hotter and hotter and hotter because there’s no windows. There’s no real doors either. You know? So, at some point, maybe 11:00 p.m. or something, I walked to the front door and it was probably about 98 by then and that cold air hit me and gave me a shiver. It was like opening the door to the walk-in.

And then I went into the bathrooms, we had these floor to ceiling mirrors. Water was running off them, there was water all over the floor, it’s thick and it’s sweat. The humidity in these bathrooms is so dense that this waterfall was running down the mirrors and flooding the floors. No leaks of sinks or anything, just sweat.

So, anyway Grace finally comes on, does this show. It was soooo hot. Folks were there at 2am, listening to Grace Jones inside of an oven.

And these Romanian crystal glasses. I think we broke about 800 glasses that night.

Paul Heckmann: Wow.

Greg McCone: I think I had about $5,000.00 in breakage on champagne glasses alone.

But, anyway, so there I am at 5:30 a.m. The night’s over. My worse night ever in the nightclub business. And it’s 5:30 a.m. and I’m alone. I get up on the ladder and I flip that thing on and the AC kicks right in.

Paul Heckmann: Oh, no.

Greg McCone: So, there are people that will tell you that there was an assistant manager who accidentally turned all the heat on. My immediate reaction at the time was maybe somebody who is a contractor who is not getting paid fast enough or something like that. To be honest with you, I still have no idea.

But the rumor that permeated was that Grace Jones wanted the room hot as hell and said, Turn the air conditioners off. And over the years I had her five or six times and every show that we’ve done, these people say, It was so hot that night, I couldn’t even believe it. The air was only off one of those shows. But going back to the glasses, those Romanian Crystal glasses…

Paul Heckmann: The legend grows legs.

Greg McCone: Anyway there were a lot of people that said that was one of the nights that created the Starck legend.

‘The Crowd on The Stairs’ a favorite gathering place

I kinda saw things different from the inside. To me it was when we decided to open after hours, which no other clubs were doing except for Bayou Landing and the other gay clubs. There were a couple of them on Cedar Springs at the time, open until 4:00 a.m.

So, shortly after we opened, we’re doing last call at 1:40 a.m. and I discovered that the law is I can serve a drink until 2:00 a.m. But every club in town, gives it at 25 min. till 2:00 a.m. The bartenders are giving last call because they want to get it done and get started cleaning and such. Right? And so the only hitch is you’ve got to have every drink up by 2:15 a.m.

So, what I told the staff was that, starting next weekend, we’re gonna start opening after hours and we’re gonna charge $10.00 a head and we’re not gonna give a last call. We’re gonna sell a drink until 2:00 a.m. At 2:00 a.m., the bar backs come out with the bus tubs, bartenders and waitresses go around the room, pick everything up. You’ve got 12 minutes to do this in and you’re gonna have 2,200 people. Right? So, we started doing it. And the first week, I had 100 people paid after 2:00 a.m.

Well, what I told them was I want to let everybody in town at all these other clubs like Confetti and Papagayo, let them know that if you get in the door at the Starck Club before 2:00 a.m., you can get a drink. I want them racing down Central Expressway to get to my club at five minutes to 2:00 a.m. so they can get in and not have to pay the $10.00 after hours cover charge and all the other issues. Right? So, the most important part of it was we served drinks that way, which everybody got it in a short time.

Waiting at the Rope

Well, the first week, I had like 100 pay. The second week, we had 1,000. Right? So, I made $10,000.00 after closing, the second Saturday night we tried it. And we were giving away water. At some point, we started charging $1.00 for water after hours and we were probably charging $1.00 for a Coke or something like that. But we didn’t stop at 4:00 a.m. We kept going. And I basically said when we get less than 300 people, you can shut it down. So, it ended up being about 6 or 7:00 a.m.

After Sunday nights, you’d open the door at 8:00 a.m. on a Monday morning and 300 people would walk out in front of that club. There’s Woodall Rogers, bumper to bumper, with everybody going to start their work week. But for the Starck crowd, the sun is up and they’re all headed to after parties.

So, to me that was it, it was just weird how it created a lifestyle. Now, here’s this club that’s open until 6:00, 7:00, 8:00 a.m. Well, I’m not gonna go to my job or I’m not gonna go home and sleep. Let’s all go eat lunch. Now, let’s all go here. Okay. It’s now 6:00 p.m. Starck opens at 9:00 p.m. Let’s go shower, change clothes, and go back.

Diana Kennedy, Nick Hamblen and Lynn Barr

It became a four-day event, people came at 9:00 p.m. on Thursday and left at 5:00 a.m. on Monday morning. And in between, they’d go to after parties or one thing or another, but it was killing them. It was like how long can you do that? And they were all smart kids. They all figured it out. They were all eating Ecstasy and doing whatever they do. But it was addictive. If you asked them a year later, they were all in there because of the dancing and the comradery and the friends they made.

Paul: Jeez Greg. Guess you were not the favorite guy with their employers.

Greg: Ha! (laughs)

Anyway you’ve got a door list which is kinda funny because you think about a club that is maximizing on everything. If I think we’re missing $0.25 on drinks, lets go up on you know, whatever. But let’s say on a busy Friday or Saturday night, 2,800 to 3,500 people come through, 2,200 of those people were on our door list because they came in every night. They were the regulars. They come in the door and, let’s say, 70 percent to 80 percent of them the first year might have been on Ecstasy, which means they’re not drinking. Can I have water, please? Which is free. I’m giving them water in a crystal glass, letting them in free, and giving them this free to more than 50 percent of my crowd.

Now, can you imagine anybody you ever worked for at Papagayo saying, That’s cool. Don’t worry about it. They’d be going, Sounds to me like that’s $22,00.00 we didn’t get just at the door. Right?

Waiting to get into the Starck Club

Paul Heckmann: Knowing Duane Thompson as well as I did and speaking as one of the Managers at Papagayo, absolutely!

Greg McCone: But the people that invested in the club, they all were well off enough that this investment wasn’t gonna break them or wasn’t gonna change their lives. By the time we opened, most of the investors had gotten married and had infants and their whole lifestyles had changed. So, we open up and we open this 24-hour lifestyle and no other clubs can or want to even do that kind of a thing.
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And then the evolution starts to take place. Who’s playing music? The first year, it was pretty iffy. How the front door worked was also pretty iffy because they’re trying to let in only cool people and in Dallas in 1984, there were about nine cool people. What they didn’t know is you’ve got 2,000 cool people out there that don’t know they’re cool. You’ve got to figure out how to get them into the room. So that’s what we did.

Paul Heckmann: So, who were some of the disc jockeys you had there?

Philippe Krootchey

Greg McCone: Okay. So, Philippe Krootchey came from Paris and he was one of Starck’s best friends and he came in and he played for about six months. He ended up leaving because he had done a music video where he starred in all the parts himself and it won the French music video of the year. So, he had to go back and accept the award and everything.

And, in the meantime, that sort of gave us the opportunity to make a change, which I felt we needed to do because he was not an American nightclub DJ. He would play the Beastie Boys but he would mix into Edith Piaf. Who knew? So, if you were having a party at your house, this is the guy you’d want playing music because he’d give you the most eclectic sound you’ve ever heard in your life. But you can only dance to three songs out of every eight because that is Philippe. Charles Aznavour is getting in the way.

So, when he left there was a fella at the club named Kerry Jagger, who was kind of a roving DJ and a good friend of Grace Jones. He was one of the important people in the development of the Starck Club, he greatly influenced what we did – and probably the person who brought Ecstasy to the club first.

Kerry and Christina ‘Sita’

Kerry Jagger – DJ

I started DJ’ng in 1975. Within a few years I was running around the country opening new clubs including coming back to Dallas for the Village Station and Old Plantation in Dallas.

I was working in New York and became good friends with Grace Jones and her sound man, Terry Friedman. He was really a one man band, did everything for her from sound & lighting to booking.

So Grace does opening night at Starck and after that Greg was talking to Terry and mentioned the DJ that had contracted with, Philippe Krootchey had returned to France as a record of his was going Top 10. So the next day I get a call just as I was about to open a new club in NYC. Terry says, ‘You need to get back to Dallas right away. There’s a new club here that needs you, get your records, get on the plane and get back here!’

So I did. And let me tell you, I was so impressed with one thing and it wasn’t the club, it was Greg McCone. He was very in tune with the whole vibe and wanted to make sure everything worked. I wasn’t used to Club Managers being so involved, I told him, ‘You are not only the best manager I ever met in the club business, you are the only manager I met in the club business!’ He makes it look so effortless, I love him.

So I worked there for about six months or so. And then I kinda conned Rick Squillante into going there. I told him my throat hurt and I couldn’t DJ and asked him to fill in for me. And that was that.

And then there was the ecstasy! A friend of mine in NYC put me on to it. It was a hot product in the city then, but not so much outside of the city. I brought it back to Dallas and the bartenders loved it. It was all still legal back then. 

I gotta say this, I loved my time at Starck, but for the marble and stars and glitter and stuff, that club never would have succeeded without Greg McCone. He made it so that every time I went into that club, it was just like the first time. I loved it!

He had a friend in San Antonio he wanted to bring up, Rick Squillante. Rick started playing music no one had ever heard before. I didn’t even know what to call it. I kind of called it euro-tech or something at first. But it was things like Depeche Mode, Tears for Fears, Echo and the Bunnymen, Joy Division, Pet Shop Boys, and Sade.

All those sounds that came out of Europe, kind of like the British revolution in the early 60s.

We were listening to the Beach Boys and Evelyn Champagne King and all of a sudden, boom, you’re hit with the Rolling Stones and the Beatles and the other 27 bands that came over.

Rick Squillante and Grant Smith, DJ from Mistral

So, it was the same thing. All this music hit and Rick was was not the kind of DJ who would mix and overmix. I was used to DJs who would lay Rod Stewart over something else and let it run for two minutes. And then come out of this and go into that. He wasn’t doing that at all. He was playing the absolute next perfect record, one right after the other.

Paul Heckmann: And all of a sudden you went from Viva la France to Dance, Dance, Dance!

Greg McCone: Exactly. They’re all dance tunes and people, by the thousands, are screaming and running to the dance floor because of Rick.

Now, there’s another issue that happened. We had been open about eight months, I guess it was the beginning of 1985. We held probably 1,800 people on a Saturday night, I but during the week, it might have 300 or 400 people. So, you had fairly nice nights on those nights but no real volume. And it had a lot to do with how do you dress. The French woman at the door, is she gonna let me in? I don’t want to be embarrassed. Who wants to pay $10.00? All those issues.

Karen Kennedy, Craig and Christina de Limur

Craig DePoi

My roommate at the time was John Baker at KZEW told me about some openings at ‘Stars’. And I heard the operator laughing when I asked for ‘Stars’ phone number, she corrected me.

So I went down to the interview and I guess they saw something they liked as I didnt have any bar experience. They hired me as a barback. And that started a 36 year run in the bar business. A total of 7 different jobs, but the Starck Club was by far the most fun.

I loved working for Greg. He was so tolerant, as long as we got our job done. Blake was partying, the bartenders were partying, the waitresses were partying, the Salvadorian busboys were partying – and Greg was our rock, he kept his shit together. You could always depend on him to be there for you.

When Starck Club closed, Deviate opened and I worked for them, then Metronome – all under the umbrella of Starck, same location. Then I went to the Hard Rock, then Trees before heading off to Bourbon Street in New Orleans.

If I had to tell you one thing about Greg? That would be that The Starck Club would have never been the club we knew without him. He was the one that made it what it was. And that even after all these years, we are still best of friends.

One of the things we originally decided upon as a group was we don’t advertise. We don’t buy newspaper ads, magazine ads, anything else. And we are gonna be found by people by word of mouth. There is not gonna be a sign out front that says Starck Club. There never was. There was a canopy on the most distinctive front door you’ve ever seen but we didn’t have a sign. Anyway, so we’re not really doing anything to promote the club and some people are intimidated by it.

Well, in February of 1985, which we’d been open nine or ten months, KAFM Radio came to Teresa La Barbera, our PR person, and said, We have a band called Boyfriend. A local band, they just redid a Beach Boys song. We want to do a party with that band on a Monday night. We’ll bring you a couple thousand people. We’ll give you 60 or 70 radio spots. And these guys want to release this song at your club.

I have always been democratic with everybody in all of our meetings, what the group decides is what we do. I had an eight-person management meeting and a seven-person marketing meeting on Wednesday and Thursday every week. So, the group as always, decided no, we do not advertise on the radio, we don’t do newspaper ads or any of that stuff. I just said, you know, this is gonna be one time when I totally overrule you.

‘Warriors of the Discotheque’ poster from one of the films about Starck

My thinking is that, if we get 2,000 people in this room on a Monday night, it doesn’t affect anybody that goes to the Starck Club because no one would think to come down on a Monday night. What I’m hoping is that, of those 2,000 people, 300 or 400 choose to come back the next weekend because they saw the room, they were in there, they heard the music. And if I do get 300 to come back, they’re gonna bring somebody. So that’s 600 people. So, right there, if my idea works, you’re gonna double your Saturday night to triple your Saturday night crowd in one week’s time, two week’s time.

So, we did it, everybody hated it, but exactly what I said would happen, did happen.

So at the point we’re only open 20 hours a week for liquor and I’m letting half the people in free. We did $80,000.00-some in February and in the next six months, we went $135,000.00, $175,000.00, $210,000.00, $260,000.00, $310,000.00 to $350,000.00. So, we went from $80,000.00 to $350,000.00 in seven months.

Because all of a sudden, I go to the front door people, you’ve been trying to let only the cool people in and you’ve been telling Roger Staubach he can’t come in. You wouldn’t let Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson in. So we’re keeping all these people out. What I want you to do is let everyone who is appropriately dressed, in terms of our theme, let everyone in and throw out the idiots. We didn’t even have security. So, the group of people that began the Starck Legend, that 1,500 to 2,000 regulars, started coming four days a week and staying all night.

Rick was the DJ for the meat of the period that the Starck Club became ‘The Starck Club’. Other clubs started doing Starck Music Night on Monday nights. Because they didn’t know what to call that music either.

Mike ‘Go-Go’ Du Priest

They called it Starck music. And then the music changed. Of course, Rick, as soon as it was on the radio, he’d break the record. For Rock Me, Amadeus four weeks earlier, he put it on and 2,000 people would almost kill each other running to the dance floor. So, we went probably three and a half years with Rick, and then Go-Go Mike DuPriest came to us.

And that was right about the time that Chicago house music was starting to come out. So, Mike DuPriest picked up on it and that’s where he got back into the mixing and the overlays and much more of a funkier, R&B, sort of bassist to the music as opposed to the Euro-tech synthesizer sound. Rick had more of an effect on the early Starck crowd where Mike DuPriest had more of an effect over DJs and a lot of the people who are now the heart and soul of EDM.

Paul Heckmann: Sure.

Greg McCone: And as important as Rick was to the club and to the sound that he created and was nationally and internationally known for, we had to change the sound. We had to evolve. We had to really stay ahead of the game and it was time. And as hard as it was to make that move, you know, just how do you get rid of Mickey Mantle?

Paul Heckmann: The issue with trendy clubs. They have to stay on the cutting edge

Greg McCone: So, we did. And we got another year or two out of Mike DuPriest and all that. But the entire time we were open, had a distinctive sound from all the other clubs which really made everything that much easier for us.

Philippe Starck, his wife and Edwige Belmore

Paul Heckmann: So, tell me about the Edwige.

Greg McCone: Edwige Belmore was Philippe’s other best friend. He had offered Krootchey and Edwige jobs. She came up in France. Edwige was a friend of Andy Warhol, on the cover of a magazine with him. She had worked for Fabrice Emaer at La Palace in Paris, who told her, “This is your home, invite in who you want. She was also known as the ‘Queen of Punk’.

And she goes on to say, ‘You know, you don’t always want people in in a certain way. Some people are good for some nights, some people are good for other nights. But you don’t want a bad element. I once turned away the King of Sweden. You don’t want certain people in your club’.

Edwige Belmore and Andy Warhol

But then she went to New York. More modeling, working the door at Studio 54, and she’s an artist and a performance artist. Does a lot of cabaret kind of stuff.

She passed away about four or five years ago. So many of the key players are gone. Mike DuPriest bought a vintage Corvette and was killed in a car wreck in northern New York State somewhere. Rick took his life. He’d been a rep A&R guy for Atlantic Records, I think, for a long time. And Krootchey died of liver failure or something. All the main characters have pretty much gone. Bob, who took over the door from Edwige and ran it for me all those years, died of Lou Gehrig’s disease.

Paul Heckmann: But you’re still here.

Greg McCone: Yeah. But it’s like a junkyard dog though, it’s getting harder and harder to get around. I told my wife about two weeks ago, I said, You know, no matter where I am anymore, like sitting at my desk and I’ll stand up to go do something, and the first 15 steps are like, ugh. And once I get about 15, 16, I’m standing up straight and then everything’s fine.

Paul Heckmann: I’m with ya brother. But nobody wants to hear our medical history. Plus you and I already have several hours of tape. Why add another week or two? (wink, wink, nod, nod)

So, you are three years in and the craziness kind of starts, doesn’t it? The Ecstasy, the bathrooms, the crazy. Tell me about the bathrooms a little more. You spoke of them a little bit, about the videos.

Greg McCone: Exactly. I think, to a certain extent, I operated a lot by faith but also sometimes wearing blinders. I don’t want to look over there because I might have to deal with something I don’t want to deal with. To be honest with you, the entire situation in the bathrooms, club, everything was handled so maturely by all these kids, it is stunning to look back at.

And just to give you an example, I had no security for two years. We didn’t even turn the lights up to pick up the glasses at 2:00 a.m. Everybody came out from behind the bar and went through the room and, if they walk by you, you put your glass in the bus tub. You didn’t go, Come back in a minute.

The development of the entire artistic side of the club, which was fostered by the hairdressers and the art gallery owners and the really hip, cool people in Dallas, was the beginning of the mingling of all these actors and rock stars and the clientele from the club. That their friends are going, Hey, you’re going to a gay club. You go, What do I care? It’s a cool place. So, you started getting that mingling together of these different lifestyles.

And because the club was so big, you could easily get into your own groups if that’s what you wanted. But everybody just became homogenized together. And so if there was a guy going, Man, look at the queer, someone would go up and go, Hey, man, you can’t do that here. No pretense, no nothing. It was never any problem. Until about two years in, about the time Dallas Alley opened up. Fifteen clubs in the same place? All of a sudden, when that happened we weren’t the only people in downtown anymore.

Suzie and David’s baby Cecil on the Starck special New Year’s Eve clocks in 1987.

Deep Ellum started to come along a little bit. Russell Hobbs was doing Theater Gallery and the Prophet Bar with Jeff Lyles. But we were the only ones in the West End. All of a sudden, you’ve got pickup trucks with guys throwing beer cans out the window and everything, going to Foggy Bottoms or whatever the names of all those clubs were. So, we’re not down there alone anymore. And some of those people are skimming off and coming into the club and so all of a sudden, now you’re up there with the bus tub and the guy is going, No, come back.

My first reaction was turning the lights up, to let everyone know you’ve got 15 minutes now. And then it just became time that I had to get a security guy. So, I first had a guy that was actually a Marine and was there in the bombing of the barracks in Beirut. He worked for me for a short time, but he was tougher than I wanted him to be. He would pick you up and put you against the wall and say shut the… well, you know.

So, I hired the guy that was in charge of security for Neiman’s downtown, Frank Ramirez. And so he handled it so well most of the time, he’d go into that room and if there were any issues, he would go, Hey, man, can I talk to you for a second? The guy would come over here, talking, having some issues with some people and he’d keep walking. And all of a sudden, he and the guy are standing on the front porch talking and Frank would say, “Well, look, we want you to come back another time”, and he’d go inside and close the door and the guy was left like, What the f*** just happened?

So, we had that. But, really, everybody took care of everybody else and looked out for everybody else. And here we are, 35 years later, and these kids are talking I don’t even know how many websites there are that are playing the same music back and forth and all.

Paul Heckmann: So, tell me a little bit about the stars that used to come in. I know Larry Hagman, Linda Gray, Thomas Hayden Church. Tell me a little bit about some of the other folks that came in.

‘Steve van Zandt, part of E Street Band and Sopranos actor

Greg McCone: Thomas Hayden Church did come in as did the ‘Dallas’ folk. From opening night we had folks like Donna Mills and of course, all the people performing like Stevie Nix and Grace Jones and Waddy Wachtel, the guitar player, and of course Dallas society.

You know who the congressmen and the senators are because they’re all frequenting it. That first eight months that we were not busy monetarily and numbers, we threw tons of great parties and had crystal charity ball and this, that, and the other. And so we had some great parties and were exposed to the top lineage of Dallas society. Everybody loved it. We were getting probably more magazine articles written about us in the first year, when we really had not become the Starck Club yet, so we were getting our props. But we weren’t living up to them in terms of what our expectations were, you know.

Well, when it finally did kick in, the tiger is running and you’re just hanging onto his tail. And you’re busy enough where you’re always trying to look a little bit ahead, how do I keep this happening? But at the same time, you’re dealing with the speed and the intensity of everything that is going on.

So, you’ve got Prince Rainier, Princess Christine and Princess Stephanie coming in for the night and Stephanie and Rob Lowe break up in the Cold Bar, or Prince is coming in with his entourage. Then you go downstairs to the cold bar and Jack Nicholson and his buddy, Lou Adler are there, you do nothing. The guy is getting a drink at the bar.

My attitude always with the famous people was to treat them like they’re normal folk and then reverse that and treat everybody that’s a regular in the club like they’re Jack Nicholson, because, in fact, that’s really what Jack Nicholson wants. He wants to be treated like a normal person. He doesn’t want people fawning over him. He’s had that his whole life.

So that’s what it was. And every one of them is the same. I sat around my office and had Dee Dee Ramone sing his whole album to Christina and I. I walk in one night and Led Zeppelin is in my bar. Two of them are in the bar drinking Heineken’s and Robert Plant is playing in concert, and when he got through, he comes to Starck and meets them. It’s like, how cool is that?

Paul Heckmann: Oh, that is really something. Some great memories.

Greg McCone: And then there were the other acts and events. Eartha Kitt, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Village People, Tommy Dorsey Orchestra. Nelson Riddle. All kinds of acts that had nothing to do with disco or dancing. I remember the sax player for Nelson Riddle’s orchestra, they were setting up on the stage and the dance floor is down here and he’s sitting right there. The guy next to him was about to sit down. And so I’m walking by I hear him say, man, whoever booked this gig is gonna lose their job. (grins)

We could do so many things with it. I had a girl that I closed on one Sunday for her. She brought in 14 Salvador Dali paintings. Salvador Dali paintings in huge, ornate frames and set them up around the whole club. Her family had this Gala Series after she had died or something.

Dallas Ballet

But we would do the theme parties. The first theme party we ever threw was suburban. We brought in metal racks and put Cheerios and canned goods and toilet paper throughout the club. And we put a plastic pool outside on the deck and a barbecue pit and made hot dogs and hamburgers and Pepsi’s and stuff like that. Everybody dressed in their favorite neighborhood barbecue stuff.

Homecoming. I get 2,000 people for Homecoming. I guarantee you 1,800 of those people would have never gonna to their high school Homecoming, but coming to the Starck Club for Homecoming, they’ve got mums and ribbons and bows and they’re dressing in letter sweaters. And we put together a band of employees only called the Starck Academy Band. Now that was fun.

Paul Heckmann: So, you’ve gone through from 1984 to about 1987 or so. And then when did things start to go South?

Greg McCone: That’s kind of where I was going into with the Dallas Alley thing. In rapid succession, we were raided in August of 1986 but nothing really transpired until the middle of ’87, right, so with the legalities and all, in rapid fire in 1987, we then had to deal with the ‘no dance’ issue and all that, Dallas Alley opened up, the drinking age went from 19 to 21, and the Texas economy went right into the tubes

Paul Heckmann: Tell me about the ‘no dance’ requirement.

Greg McCone: The ‘no dance’ was just our reaction to the police saying we’re gonna suspend your dance permit for two weeks. They were under the understanding or the belief that the TABC would suspend our liquor license or even take it away. I’m not sure what their thought process was. But the TABC didn’t. We did get fined $10,000.00 and we paid them. Well, Blake and I had a Dallas officer that had been working at our club for two years.

We had gone downtown after the raid but before any of the ramifications came about and said, We’re not really exactly sure what you expect us to be doing. The people who take Ecstasy in the club here, or any other drug, if you have a problem with them, come into the club and bust them. Take them. You see a guy dealing, arrest him. Take him out. Yes, we are somewhat permissive but we are not, and we never were, allowing people to do lines of cocaine on the tables.

You hear people talking all the time about Ecstasy on the bars in jars. None of that happened. In fact, after hearing this over and over, about a year ago, I talked to the bar manager. I said, hey, I keep being asked this question. Please refresh for me. Did we ever have Ecstasy out on the bars in jars? He went, Absolutely not.

Paul Heckmann: Once these stories get started, sometimes they take on a life of their own.

Greg McCone: They may have it in their cash drawer. But the point is, for those first two years, it was legal so it wasn’t even an issue of doing something illegal. Blake and I had been approached by manufacturers in Chicago that said, you know, you can sell this in your club. We’ll sell it to you for $5.00 or $6.00 or $7.00, you get $20.00 retail. Blake goes, man, that’s incredible. What do you think about this? I said, Blake, I’m not even allowed to give a guy an aspirin if he has a headache. How am I gonna sell Ecstasy.

So the deal was we went to the police and said ‘We expect you to do your job, and we don’t feel that we’ve done anything wrong. There’s not a nickel of that money that’s ever gone onto the Starck Club balance sheet or even off the sheet, and you’re trying to hold us up as the distributor to the entire United States because we were one of the first places people started doing it’.

Their response was, There’s really not anything we can do to help you.

So we are saying, ‘What do you mean there’s nothing you can do?’

Them, ‘Well, we just can’t. They pulled our Dallas police officers out of the parking lot.

What was actually found at Starck Club

And I said, That’s cool, I’ve got Sheriff’s deputies that work too, so the Police officer in front of me picks up the phone and calls the Sheriff. Now you don’t have Sheriff’s deputies either.

So, they were just trying to keep us in a position of getting us in bigger troubled. The raid was 36 people. Two employees, both waiters, had prior indictments from three or four months earlier and they indicted them because they had come into the club and bought from them. I wont say that the other 34 people, none of them were arrested for drugs, but I would say that 90 percent of them were arrested for public intoxication even though they weren’t. They just didn’t move fast enough when a cop said, you go sit over there, or they jerked their arm away or anything like that, the cops would go, You’re under arrest for public intoxication. There was a manager of a club in Deep Ellum that came in the club and got arrested walking in the door. So, all of these stories about the raid are embellished because it’s the Starck Club.

Paul Heckmann: So, one of the rumors that I have heard for years is how the floor was littered with drugs from heroin to coke to you name it. Tell me the about when the club was busted.

Greg McCone: I’ve got the indictment and the lab report from the police. We have 274 Ecstasy tablets 7 joints, some Ritalin and 3-4 grams of cocaine. If you took those 274 Ecstasy pills and threw them in the air, it would land within 10 feet in every direction. I’ve got 22,000 square feet. Right? I was flying in from Puerto Rico the night of the raid. Christina called me in the next morning. So about 6:30 a.m., I’m down in the front and meeting with the press including AP, UPI. And they’re saying the police said the drugs were so thick, the police dogs were tripping on them. Well, that became the main quote on the front page of every major paper in the United States that day. ‘Starck Club Raided, Drugs so Thick, Police Dogs Tripping on Them’.

Paul Heckmann: Which embellished the Starck Club image again, good or bad

Greg McCone: Well, and it did. But not in a way we would have liked. When you’re fighting and you’re trying to get H.L. Hunt’s and Meyerson’s and whoever and all their kids and grandkids into your club, all of sudden, there’s a stigma. And to be honest with you, there is a lot of people in this town that think the only reason the raid even happened was because all these parents along Turtle Creek were mad about their kids putting eye makeup on and dressing like sissies around hairdressers and hanging out at the Starck Club. ‘We need to do something about this’.

There was a club on Harry Hines two nights earlier that had a quarter of a million dollars in cocaine in the bust but you didn’t hear about them. So, the ‘No Dance’ promotion came about because we were sitting there with the police in a subsequent meeting and they said, ‘Okay, we’ve agreed to give you a two-week suspension of your dance license. When do you plan on closing?’

And we said, ‘We don’t plan on closing, we’re just not gonna dance. So, that’s when they said, ‘We’re gonna be the first people in the door every night. If we so much as see someone tapping their foot, we’re gonna take away your dance permit.’ So, that’s where we said, ‘Okay, we get 20 regulars and we get them t-shirts with No Dance Police, and we did eight parties, which would have been the eight nights we were open. And then we brought in Karen Findley.

Karen Findley is the performance artist out of New York City that usually does her act buck naked. She gets No. 10 cans of candied yams and makes believe she’s having diarrhea. It’s all kinda filthy, but it’s her way of exposing misogyny, rape and abuses of all kind. I brought her in, I brought My Sin in from San Francisco. I brought in Patsy Cline and the Memphis G-Spots, which was a drag show.

Bob Amaro, the door manager, wrote lyrics to a Little Stevie song, ‘Why Can’t I Play Sun City?’ Do you remember that song? Little Stevie from Springsteen’s E-Street band. The guy with the bandanna. Suzie Riddle took on the role of Director.

And it turned out that the Dallas Ballet and the Las Colinas Communications Complex and all these people donated studio time and the ballet said, ‘When do you want us there?’ And so about 60 of us all went out and did the recording of the music and then the next Sunday, the last night of the no dance was the video release party, where we released ‘Why Can’t I Dance at the Starck Club?’. It played on all three network 10pm news shows that night. So, that was the end of no dance.

Paul Heckmann: And there went 1987.

Greg McCone: Right.

Paul Heckmann: Okay. How much longer did Starck Club operate after that?

Greg McCone: Two more years.

Paul Heckmann: Two more years after that. Tell me.

Greg McCone: The Texas economy just really wasn’t coming back. All those buildings downtown failed. The savings and loans crisis had hit and all these like Blue Bonnet and Sunbelt and all the rest of them were failing. It was not really an atmosphere that you wanted to run a club like Starck. And depending on what you’re after, you have to understand that there are cycles. You can’t have the Great Gatsby for 60 years. You know? Most of those people died Year 10.

So, it just was no longer conducive to our style of club and we decided that we were going to close with Grace Jones and sublease the club.

DJ Tony Fair at 10th anniversary Party in 1994

I was also talking to Don Furrh from Million Dollar Saloon about taking the club space over. He came down and met with Blake and I about turning the Starck Club into the Billion Dollar Saloon, and then he gets shot and killed two nights later at his house. His daughter took over the Million Dollar Saloon and ran it until they closed, whenever that was. Ten years ago, probably. But Gold Club came and talked to us about that space as well. The Billion Dollar Saloon would have been a great idea.

And so we subleased the club to the group you may remember, called Heartthrob.

So this is ’89, Okay, they come in, pay us rent and we vacated. I started working with Don Nedler on opening the Lizard Lounge and looking for a location for it.

Paul Heckmann: And that one I know well, I used to run the Gold Club at 2424 Swiss. My best friend worked there with me, Gene Cook.

Greg McCone: I didn’t know that.

Paul Heckmann: Yep, my last job in clubs

Greg McCone: I was one of your customers! I spent a lot of time there before it was the Gold Club too when it was Empire.

Paul Heckmann: Well, it was really interesting, but that is a story for another time.

Greg, this has been so much fun working with you the past few months, you are one smart guy, but even more important, perceptive – you didn’t stay in the box that we tend to get into, in the bar business.

So I think the last question will be, ‘If you had to summarize Starck in a couple of paragraphs, what would that summary be?’

Greg McCone: My entire philosophy about the club was it had nothing to do with any other nightclubs. So, I didn’t really look at it like I had competition, because as it turned out, I really didn’t. We were doing things that no one else had ever tried to do. From the very beginning my philosophy was that Philippe Starck has given us a blank canvas. This is a museum. These curtains are blank, the walls are blank, the music has yet to be chosen. We can make this room whatever we want it to be. You can take that museum and still make it anything you want it to be.

And I consider myself fortunate to have worked and lived with some of the most talented people in Dallas, I might have been the head of the ship but everyone had a voice.

It was truly a temporary refuge for all who understood what we were trying to do. But the most credit for the success of The Starck Club goes to the folks we saw everyday, the regulars at our “Theater of Life”. I love those guys, they are what made the club a legend.

Paul Heckmann: Thank you sir. But most of all, thank you Abby for loaning me Greg the last three months as we worked on this project, and putting up with all of our our cackling and crowing. I am returning him, slightly tarnished, moderately bent, but for the most part, only slightly the worse for wear!

And on that note, it is time to end this one, and so we shall.

Abby and Greg

 

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]]> https://meminc.org/gregmccone/feed/ 2 1492 Alan Kaye, Let Me Put a Smile on Your Face! https://meminc.org/alankaye/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=alankaye Sat, 06 Jul 2019 19:36:49 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1287

When Joy Simmons opened the Comedy Corner, she wouldn’t book me, because she was booking all these LA acts with guys that had been on Carson, or this show or that. But Dallas didn’t know who they were, so they weren’t drawing very big crowds, and she finally booked me. And she said, you’re going to have to be the middle act. So, I middled for Gary Shandling, and I middled for Kevin Nealon, and next thing you know, she hired me to headline. And I put more people in there than some of their LA comics. And started headlining there. Bill Engvall was the in-house MC back then.

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Let Me Put a Smile On Your Face!

The Alan Kaye Story

By Paul Heckmann, Executive Director Memories Incorporated
Edited by Mark Cheyne, Administrator ‘Memories of Dallas’

 

Paul Heckmann: Hi Alan, Paul Heckmann here with Memories of Dallas.

Alan Kaye: Hey Paul!

Paul Heckmann: That’s a familiar voice from back in the day. Let’s get right to it, tell me where you’re from, where you grew up.

Alan Kaye: Yes, I was born and raised in Kokomo, Indiana, which is just about 60 miles north of the Indianapolis 500 Raceway.

It was really homogenous. Back then, there wasn’t a lot of crime, and people didn’t lock their doors, and everybody knew each other. You know, everybody’s neighbor knew your folks, and your folks knew their folks, and that kind of thing. It was a great place to grow up as a kid.

I went to school in Kokomo and right in the middle of my freshman year, my mom and her husband built a house out in Miami County, which is north of us. It was adjacent to what was then called Bunker Hill Air Force Base. It was a B-58 Hustler base, as part of the Strategic Air Command, so it was both fully operational and had high-level people. There were a ton of officers and pilots due to the type of plane.

And I went to Maconaquah High School, which was pretty much funded by the government, because of all the Air Force brats that went there.

Paul Heckmann: So, there’s all this military all around you. Were you intending to go into the military at some time?

Alan Kaye: Not really. I left high school early, and Kokomo at that time was a huge factory town. 150 or more factories, potteries, and springworks, and Continental Steel was here. Delco and Chrysler both had big plants all over the place. But I was under 18, so I couldn’t get a job. And my folks were planning on getting a divorce – my mom and the guy she’d married – and so I really wanted out. And I went down to a recruiter to join the Navy, because my real father had been in the Navy, and I passed all the tests and everything, but then they kept putting me on hold.

And I said, I want to get out of town. They said, well, we’ve got our quota, because everybody was trying to join the Air Force or Navy to get out of being drafted and going to the war.

Paul Heckmann: What year was this?

Alan Kaye: This was 1969.

So, I went to the Air Force, and they told me the same thing. And the Marine Corps recruiter was down the hallway, and I walked in. I had been trying to get out of town since August. And it was a Tuesday morning, and I said, I want to join, but the only condition is I want to go right away. He said, how soon do you want to go? And I said, as soon as possible. And he said, I’ll be right back. And he walked down the hallway, and got my paperwork from the Navy recruiter. And he said, I’ll pick you up at your house Thursday morning at 6:00. And off I went. I went from MCRD recruitment depot in San Diego, to Camp Middleton, California, and was put in a supply company. And they moved me to the AmTracs, and that’s where I stayed for quite a while.

I was basically taking care of supplies for the AmTrac battalion. And I put in orders for embassy duty in Japan, because a buddy of mine had got it and said it was great. You know, you wore dress blues, and it was, you know, this kush duty. And, so one day, the sergeant came in and he said, you got orders up at the company office. And I thought, great! And I went up there, and they said, FMF Westpac. You’re going to Vietnam. So, I went through all the training to go to Vietnam, got all the shots, went through all the stuff, and when it came time to ship out that day, everybody got on trucks and left except eight of us. And he said, you guys have less than 13 months left to do.

So he says you have a tour of duty that is longer than your time left, so you can either re-up and go to Vietnam, or you can separate and get out early. And I thinking ‘Vietnam or separate and get out early’… I guess you know which direction I went.

After I got out of the Marines, wasn’t sure exactly what to do. But I had always been able to do impressions, and make people laugh. My father and my mother were both great storytellers, and joke tellers at parties. And I had the knack, so I went out and got a job at the local radio station.

Paul Heckmann: There ya go!

Alan Kaye: So I was a disc jockey for a while and then working in bands, and when the band thing broke up, I called an agent. And I said, ‘I’m looking for work, I got to pay my rent’.

He said, ‘Well, I don’t have anything band-wise for you. But if you know any comedians, I need a comedian to open a show down in Indianapolis’. And he said, ‘If you’ll turn me on to one of your friends that’s a comedian, I’ll give you the booking commission. That’ll help you out money-wise’.

And so, I hung out, but I called a few guys, and they weren’t available. And the phone rang, and it was him calling me back. He said, you used to do impressions and tell jokes when somebody broke a string or the band went on break. Why don’t you do it? It’s only two 15-minute shows, and you can do the same material, because we’re going to clear the house. And it’s opening for Albert King. Can you work a black audience? And I says, ‘Absolutely!’ And that’s the somewhat true story of how I got into comedy.

I got married for the second time in the early ‘70s to a girl from Eaton, Ohio, which is right outside of Dayton. And I flourished pretty well in Dayton doing comedy. She got a job in Dallas at Mercantile Bank. So, we moved to Dallas, and I went around and didn’t tell anybody who I was, or what I did, I just kind of went to the clubs, and, you know, checked them out. There were no comedy clubs, but I went to Bowley and Wilson’s, and also to the Playboy Club, various places to check things out. And I got hired to do a show at the Playboy Club.

I can’t remember, but I think it was Ramsey Lewis, or somebody, like that, that I was opening for. But I only did it one time, and they never had me back. And I was kind of bummed out about that. Once I started appearing at Nick’s, I didn’t miss the Playboy Club at all.

When Joy Simmons opened the Comedy Corner, she wouldn’t book me, because she was booking all these LA acts with guys that had been on Carson, or this show or that. But Bowie and Dallas didn’t know who they were, so they weren’t drawing very big crowds, and she finally booked me. And she said, you’re going to have to be the middle act. So, I middled for Gary Shandling, and I middled for Kevin Nealon, and next thing you know, she hired me to headline. And I put more people in there than some of their LA comics. And started headlining there. Bill Engvall was the in-house MC back then.

 

And when I would play the Cleveland Comedy, comedian Bruce Baum and I became great friends, and he got me a lot of gigs in California and other states where I had no connections. And when I played Cleveland and Akron, they’d always say, who do you want to middle? And I’d say, Drew Carey. And they’d go, why do you want Drew Carey? And I said, he’s a funny guy! I don’t want somebody that’s lousy out there for 25 minutes, and then I’ve got to come up and start all over from scratch. I want Drew Carey.

And so, I worked with Drew Carey, and when I was in Indianapolis, I used to use George Lopez as an opener a lot. And look where those two guys are.

Paul Heckmann: (a wink and a nod) I think I’ve heard of them.

Alan Kaye: I think this gets us to about 1981. After I did that show, I said, I got to go around and hit some of these clubs up. And a friend of mine said, well, why not start at the top? You know, don’t go to these little small places. You’ve opened for Tony Orlando and Dawn, and you’ve done some things with Albert King. Go to the Palladium.

So, I went to the Palladium, and the guy was in there. And I said, I want to talk to somebody about booking, and he said, well, what band are you with? And I said, I’m representing a comic. And he said, oh, we don’t use comedians. And I said, well, you’d use this guy. I said, he cut his teeth doing breaks in rock clubs. And he said, well, you got any tape? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, come on in the showroom.

So, we went in there, and it was dark. And he brought the screen down, and I handed him the videotape, and he put it in. And he laughed all the way through, and he said, great, let’s go up to the office. We walked up to the office, and he goes, dang, you look a lot like that guy in the video, I had kind of a perm in my hair, and now I had short hair. And I grinned and cocked my head… And he smiles back and says, ‘Well, good’. And my very first gig was with with Eaton-Page Productions to play the Palladium. And the first one was Bugs Henderson, and then Wet Willy.

After doing that for a bit, I had some gigs up in Indiana, so I flew back up to Indiana, and I did some gigs. And when I got back down to Texas the Palladium had closed.

Agora Ballroom courtesy Terry Cummings

And I thought, what am I going to do? And somebody said, well, they’re going to reopen it as an Agora Ballroom. So, I did the same thing with them. I just went in, and I said, look, I played here when it was the Palladium, and I’ve done this and that. And I showed them the tape. And Eddie Gattus, who was the manager, loved it, because using a comic, you don’t have to fork truck a drumkit down, and change all the gear, you know? It was a quick set change, so they could set up the band, and I could go up in front of the band with my props and do the show.

And Louie Messina and Stevie Hauser from Pace Concerts were in town. They promoted shows at the Agora, and they fell in love with me, and we became great friends. So, I started doing the Houston Agora, and they started booking me in Austin, and this place and that place. And the next thing you know, I was going like crazy. And then, one night, I was introduced to Angus Wynne, and he was more into the eclectic acts back then. So, he used me to open for acts like James Brown, Ray Charles, Phobe Snow, and Delbert McClinton, all sorts of kinds of acts.

Paul Heckmann: He had a knack for finding talent.

Alan Kaye: Yes he did, still does! And next thing you know, I was working. And one night, I got a call. And the guy said, I’m from Cardi’s, and he said, we need an opening act for Dave Edmunds and Rockpile. And I said, what date? And he gave me the date. And I said, well, I can’t do it because I’m opening for Jean Luc Ponty at the Agora. And he said, what time’s that show? And I said, it’s 7:00. And he goes, well, do that, and come down here and open for these guys at Cardi’s. So, I opened for Jean Luc Ponty and David Edmunds and Rockpile in the same night.

Paul Heckmann: So, I noticed on your page that you actually opened for quite a few other bands out there. Some big names and national bands, too.

Alan Kaye: in 1982, I got a call from Louie Messina at Pace Concerts, and he said, we’re doing six shows with Chicago. It’s their comeback tour, 1982.

And he said, the first two will be in New Orleans, and the second two will be in Houston, and then the last two will be at Fair Park. And you’ll be back home. So, we agreed on a price, and they flew me out. And I did two shows in New Orleans, and then we went to Houston. I did two shows there. And then we came to Dallas, and we did two shows. The first show, my wife and friends had come to the show, and they left. And I did the second show.

And when the second show was done, I was putting my props up, and I said to the road manager, I said, listen, if you ever need an opening act again, please, please, call me. Because I love this band. I grew up in Indiana listening to Chicago. And I said, it was neat meeting my heroes, and they all seem like great guys. And I said, I’d love to do some more shows. And he said, well, you got about two hours and 15 minutes. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, until we load up and get out of here. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, we want you to do the whole rest of the tour.

And I was dumbstruck, man. And I end up driving because I couldn’t pack the bag, and got my shit, and got back, but anyway I went on tour with them. So, at the end of ’82, they came over to me and said, you know, it was great, but we change our opening acts all the time. And usually, we don’t even use one act for a full year. And we used you for a full year, and we’ve got another act booked, I think it was either Brad Garrett or Big Country. And either way, I went back to trying to book comedy clubs, and gigs, and about seven days later at 11:00 at night I got a call. And they said, this is not working out. We’re letting them go and we’re hiring you back. There’s a plane ticket waiting for you at DFW, and you’ll do all of ’83.

So, I did all of ’83. And then in ’84, same thing. I don’t know if it was – I think it was Brad Garrett in ’84, and I got a call about six nights into their tour. And he said, look, we wanted to fire this guy after the second night, but we had an agreement with the agent in LA. And we just got out of the agreement, so you’re going to do all of ’84. He said they were at Chastain Park in Atlanta, where you got a standing ovation. They were throwing cups of beer at him. So, I got the gig again! So, I did ’82, ’83, ’84, and Peter Cetera said he was leaving the band, and he wasn’t even going to do ’85. And they said, look, you know, we’ve got Chicago 17. We’ve got four hit singles. We’re kicking ass. We’re going to continue the tour. Peter has agreed to stay until April of ’85. Will you do the same? And I said, absolutely.

So, I did all of ’85 with them. And then I did a few assorted dates in ’87 and ’89 with them, but they were just one-offs.

Paul Heckmann: That is wild! I’m a huge Chicago fan!

Alan Kaye: So it’s 1987, I went back to doing standup comedy clubs, and I went to Dayton, Ohio, to do a club, and a guy that I’d done radio with in Kokomo, Indiana, had a morning show there. And he brought his boss. And they sat me down after the show, and said, look, we’re planning on firing Dave Gross’s partner and replacing him. We’d like you to come off the road, and become his partner on the morning show here in Dayton. We’ve slipped to fifth or sixth in the ratings, and we need a kick-ass morning show. And we think, with all your impressions and all your comedy, you’d be great as Dave’s sidekick. And you guys already know each other.

And they made me an incredible offer. They paid for my move from Dallas up to Dayton. They got me a house for my family. My wife was expecting my second daughter, and they gave us Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance, and a 401(k). It was like a dream come true, and I could get paid for doing my comedy on the side on the weekends, because I was only on Monday through Friday.

And part of what sparked it was, after they found out I did comedy, they also found out that I did a lot of voices for Bo and Jim on KTXQ. I worked with their morning show forever. I did Elvis, and Mr. Nicholson’s Neighborhood, a spoof on Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood, only with Jack Nicholson. And I did a bunch of characters for them, so that helped me. So, I worked there from ’87 until ’90, and they breached my contract, and I had to sue them. And I won, and left radio. And came back to Indiana, and I was doing some comedy here and there.

And then I got a divorce in ’97. I was just devastated by the divorce, didn’t do anything for a couple of years – I wanted off the road. And I didn’t think I’d ever do comedy or anything ever again. I just went to work for my cousin, who owned a restaurant. But I was the guy, and every time I’d go see a comic, or see a band, I’d think, God, I could do better than that. You know?

Paul Heckmann: You have a gift, ya have to share it.

Alan Kaye: Thanks, that’s what I did. I left the restaurant, and went back to doing comedy, and the gigs were sparse. So, I called a friend of mine, who had been my bass player in the second band that I’d ever sung for, back in the ‘70s. He had worked for a performance magazine in Fort Worth, and he’d left there and started his own magazine in Nashville called, The Touring and Booking Guide. So, he knew a lot of people, and I said, find me a gig. And so, he was looking for a gig, and I went to a Halloween party dressed as Ozzy Osbourne.

And some people shot some video and pictures of it. And I sent it to him. And he goes, my God, your Ozzy Osbourne’s incredible! Why aren’t you in the tribute business? And I said, I know nothing, nothing of the tribute business. And he said, well, if I got you an audition, would you do it? And I said, sure! And he said, well, the biggest company that does tributes is Legends in Concert. They’ve been in Vegas forever, and they have locations in Myrtle Beach, and they have locations in Atlantic City, and duh-duh-duh.

So, I flew out, and I did Joe Cocker, and I did Ozzy Osbourne. And they loved the Ozzy, so they were going to hire me for four weeks. And then it almost ended up being a year as Ozzy. And when the Ozzy Osbourne reality show tanked, and Sharon’s talk show tanked, so did the calls for the Ozzy.

Well, I thought, who else can I do? So, I made friends with a guy who tributes Tom Jones, and he also produces shows. And we were sitting in his car, outside the theater, and I said, hey, I want you to listen to something. And, you know, it was cassettes back then. So, we put a cassette in, and he goes, oh, I know who this is. This is Joe Cocker. I said, well, just listen to it. So, he listened to it a little. I ran it up, and was playing snippets from songs. And he said, I got this album. I said, you don’t have this album, because that’s me singing. He said, oh, bullshit. And I said, it is. And he said, Alan Kaye, that’s phenomenal! You ought to do Joe Cocker.

Paul Heckmann: Amazing!

Alan Kaye: Yes it is! So I had a guy that portrayed Barry White teach me how to make a fake beard every day. I had to make a new one every day out of hair, and glue, and shit. And a wig. And I was doing the young Cocker in bellbottom jeans and a tie-dye shirt. And, so I said to my buddy, who tributed Tom Jones, I said, what do you think? And he said, well, the voice and your movements and everything are spot on. But, he said, you just look like a guy in a Halloween costume. You don’t look as good as Cocker as you did as Ozzy. Why don’t you get rid of the wig, and the beard, and just grow your own stubble? And cut your hair real short, and just do it that way.

And I fought him on it, because I think the beard and the wig were kind of a security blanket. And I really fought him. Finally, he said, just try it for me. Just try it for me. Come down next month to Cincinnati, and sit in on a show. And I did, and slayed the audience, and so I started doing Joe Cocker.

But again, the gigs weren’t often enough to keep me busy, so I was working at a pawn shop, and a jewelry store in the daytime. And pretty soon, the Cocker thing started taking off. And I said, well, I’m going to form my own band in Indianapolis to do Joe Cocker. And then I’ll do it with the Vegas guys when I get a chance.

So, I formed this Cocker band. Well, the thing about that is, there’s so many people in the band, it’s a lot of rooms. It’s a lot of paychecks. It’s a lot of travel expenses, a lot of airfare. And so, the only thing that could afford it was festivals, and big concerts, and casinos, and stuff. And I hadn’t done any comedy since, like, 2000, and I got a call from two guys, nationally known comedian Dave Dugan, and Jay Baker, who was a comedian, and also a member of Bob and Tom’s morning show for decades. And they said, we’re doing comedy, and we want you to come and do comedy with us. And I said, I haven’t done comedy in forever. And they said, yeah, but we love you, man. Come and do it. It’ll be fun.

And I knew Dugan, and I knew Jay, so I thought, well, this will be fun. So, I went and did it, and I had a blast. And so, we did some comedy shows together. And I came home one night, and I was looking through my old folders at old comedy material, and I thought, some of this stuff is dated, but some could be used.

So, I started looking through it, and I found a number for Angus Wynne. And I thought, man, I haven’t spoken to Angus in forever. So, I called the number, and the phone rang, and this guy said, hello? And I said, yes, this is Alan Kaye, calling from Indiana. And I said, I’d like to speak to Angus Wynne. And he says, oh, I think I can find that old guy somewhere around here. And then he started laughing, and I recognized it was Angus’s laugh.

Paul Heckmann: Yep, the laugh hasn’t changed since his bal… wait, this is PG. The Angus laugh hasn’t changed in years!

Alan Kaye: (laughs) And Angus said, it’s weird that you can call this number, because this is an old landline. He said, I haven’t had this number listed as my number on the internet or anywhere for decades. I just kept it as a landline, so if I’m on the phone myself, I can use this landline. And he said, I’m hardly ever in the room. It’s just a weird coincidence that you should call. What have you been up to?

So, I told him, I’ve been doing a little bit of comedy, but my main focus is my Joe Cocker tribute. Now, I had opened for Cocker several times back in the ‘80s, and I’d studied him real close. And I, you know, at least once a week I watched Cocker videos to watch his movements, and his mannerisms. And I listened to the radio interviews and stuff, so I could get his talking voice down, as well as his singing voice. And I always admired Joe so much, and loved him so much. And I said, I’m really pushing this Cocker thing.

And as history has it, Angus called me back, and I’m going to be doing my Joe Cocker tribute at the 50th anniversary of the Texas International Pop Festival.

Paul Heckmann: That’s incredible. I’m really excited to see you do that, my friend.

Alan Kaye: Oh, I’m loving it. I’m just sad that I’m only doing a half hour, because I figured, we normally do an hour show with a 10-minute encore. And I was planning on that, and when I found out I only had to do 30 minutes, I was kind of bummed out. But my band said, yeah, but that way we won’t do any filler or deep cuts. We’ll do nothing but the hits!

And that’s what the crowd wants to hear. They want to be nostalgic, and visit that. It’s historical for Lewisville. It’s historical for Dallas. So, we’ll be doing the big Cocker hits, and I’m just so excited to come back. I’m going to see Bo and Jim from the radio days. I’ll see Eddie Gattus from the Agora. I know a bunch of the Agora Ballroom bartenders and barbacks are coming. I’ll be able to see friends I haven’t seen since 1987, and I’m just as stoked as I can be.

Paul Heckmann: This has been a blast Alan. Quite amazing to hear your voice again after all these years.

BTW – I will be in Row GA2, Seat 47 rooting for you at the Pop Festival! See you there!

50th Anniversary Lewisville Pop Festival 

 

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]]> 5304 MEMORIES OF DALLAS PARTY AT OZONA WITH THE WOO BROTHERS! https://meminc.org/aug3ozona/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=aug3ozona https://meminc.org/aug3ozona/#comments Wed, 03 Jul 2019 22:54:51 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?p=1276 The post MEMORIES OF DALLAS PARTY AT OZONA WITH THE WOO BROTHERS! appeared first on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

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Aug 3rd Event at Ozona for Memories of Dallas, Sponsored by Buddy Magazine!

August 3rd, 2019 7pm at Ozona for our next Extravaganza. Jerry Smith and The Legendary Woo Brothers are our headliners!

Sponsored by Buddy Magazine!

The Legendary Woo Brothers, Jackie Don Loe, Billy King on bass, Peter Kaplan on drums and Jerry Smith as the Grand Woo-in-Charge!

Some of you may know Angus Wynne III. He is one of our Memories Board members and produced the Texas Int Pop Festival in 1969 and it doing the 50 year event this Labor Day in Lewisville.

Angus Wynne III
This is one for the books! Talk about Memories: it would be hard to top a date at Ozona with Jerry Smith and the Woo Brothers. Come one, come all for one great event!

Mark your calender’s! Aug 3rd, 7pm at Ozona!

$10 a Head!

This is a fundraiser for Memories of Dallas with The Legendary Woo Brothers! $10 at the door.

There will be free food off the Ozona menu on a first come, first served.

We are spending and guaranteeing $2,300 on this event.. This stuff ain’t cheap! So we appreciate any other contributions!

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]]> https://meminc.org/aug3ozona/feed/ 4 5303 AN OAK CLIFF GIRL https://meminc.org/oakcliffgirl/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=oakcliffgirl https://meminc.org/oakcliffgirl/#comments Wed, 03 Jul 2019 15:28:53 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1251

We had no car, and I’ll resist the story that we walked a mile to school in the snow, but yes, we walked to school, no matter the weather. If we needed to go where legs wouldn’t take us, we would ride the bus. Sometimes, we had to take a paper transfer from the driver, in order to reach our destination, but we rarely left Oak Cliff. In fact, I distinctly remember my Mother telling us, “There is no reason to go to the other side of the Trinity River.” We took the Dallas Times Herald newspaper. It was known as the paper for “our side of town.” We had paper boys who rode their bikes and we knew all their names and where they would throw our paper. Our mail was delivered by a mailman (never a woman) who would walk to the door and put the mail in a metal box by the door.

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Electric trolley in front of Sklllern’s in Oak Cliff. Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

 

An Oak Cliff Girl

by Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

Edited by Paul Heckmann

I am a product of Oak Cliff, Texas, a fact I state proudly. Born at Methodist Hospital, which now has a different look, my first several years were spent in Cockrell Hill. That was long before I knew about Sarah Cockrell and how she helped early Dallas.

L.O. Donald Elementary Banner, Photo courtesy Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

My world was very small for most of my formative years. We moved just to the outskirts of Cockrell Hill when I began school, attending L.O. Donald Elementary. It was just a typical school, with open windows and doors and nature was our air conditioning. The playground was nothing special, but we all loved the tether ball and jungle gym. Girls never wore anything but dresses to school, but outdoor play required pants to be worn under them. Modesty was a virtue. Shoes were, for the most part, saddle oxfords, which were foam-polished when needed.. A highlight, for the girls anyway, was square dance lessons. The boys, whom we likely referred to as ‘rat finks’ because we were sure they had cooties, reluctantly accepted the challenge of doing an alaman left, but, in the end, I think enjoyed the dance as well.

We had no car, and I’ll resist the story that we walked a mile to school in the snow, but yes, we walked to school, no matter the weather. If we needed to go where legs wouldn’t take us, we would ride the bus. Sometimes, we had to take a paper transfer from the driver, in order to reach our destination, but we rarely left Oak Cliff. In fact, I distinctly remember my Mother telling us, “There is no reason to go to the other side of the Trinity River.” We took the Dallas Times Herald newspaper. It was known as the paper for “our side of town.” We had paper boys who rode their bikes and we knew all their names and where they would throw our paper. Our mail was delivered by a mailman (never a woman) who would walk to the door and put the mail in a metal box by the door.

We never had central heat or air and only when I became a teenager did we have a fan and it was a swamp fan. All during the day and night, we would have to take turns going outside, turn on the water hose, and wet the panels of the fan, if we wanted cool air. Summer nights, we slept on pallets in front of the fan and winter nights, four of us girls slept in one bed, topped with two quilts.

A good day for me and my gal pals was to pack a sack lunch and hike in the Chalk Hill Escarpment. We never gave thought to the dangers of reptiles or human snakes!

Weiss Park Community Center, Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

We lived about four or five blocks from Weiss Park. It never occurred to me that it was named for a man named Martin Weiss, a Hungarian immigrant who came to this Country and made significant Civic and philanthropic contributions to the City of Dallas. For us, it was our playground and our refuge. The summer would find us walking barefoot to the park, popping tar bubbles along the way. The park boasted a nice pool and a community center. The former required mass purchases of milk duds and sugar babies for hungry swimmers. The community center offered all kinds of activities for young boys and girls. In 1959, it afforded two special memories for me. First, it was the site of our Seventh Grade Graduation party, a bittersweet ending to the childhood we so loved.

Mary’s 7th grade graduation class in school. Courtesy Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

Secondly, it allowed me to tap my inner-thespian. A competition was held among city parks. Each would put on a play and compete against one another. In the end, I was awarded Best Actress. Our play was called “A Spacesuit of Roses.” I remember nothing about it, but I still brag….because I can.

There were several Churches in Oak Cliff but we attended Cockrell Hill Missionary Baptist Church. It was about six blocks from the house and we went there out of convenience. I mean no irreverence. We were Baptists (or so we were told), it was there, and we went. I was immersed there, so it has a certain importance to me. We had Training Union and Vacation Bible School. That’s what kids remember. I also remember that, at the end of Church, all the men congregated on the front steps and smoked their cigarettes. That didn’t seem religious to me at the time, but I was just a kid, just trying to reconcile religion and smoking.

Westmoreland Heights Shopping Village, Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

A mile from our house was the Westmoreland-Heights Shopping Center. It filled every need a family could have. When the school year began, we bought our school supplies at Page Drug Store or Skillern’s Drugs, a little farther North on Westmoreland, at Clarendon. If we spent $5.00, we got a free milk shake.

We called it “The Heights.” It had a theatre by the same name. Oh, it was glorious. It was cool and that was always a draw. The snack bar had all the usual elements needed for cavities and on top of the counter was a huge jar of dill pickles. My best friend, Sharon, always got the pickle. I got the cavities.

I saw “The Blob” there. I was scared out of my wits. The movie house also had a cry room. Couples would try to go in there for stolen kisses, but would get asked to leave so crying babies would have a place to yell. There were also dances there. Really, it was the bomb!

We would also walk to Cockrell Hill. Back then (old person vernacular), there were several places of interest. Gilley’s Pharmacy was a cornucopia of everything and more.

Gilley’s Pharmacy in Oak Cliff, courtesy Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

There was a little diner with tabletop jukeboxes, always a hit with young teens, a drive-in burger joint called The Bronco, where, and listen closely, we got 10 hamburgers for $1.00. There was also the Hill Theatre, which was owned by Gene Autry, yes, the very one. I barely remember it and later, it became a skate rink, and then, I believe, a hardware store. Another skate rink in the vicinity was The Rocket. It was grand, with the disco ball and all. I can still hear the announcer say, “All skate.”

We had two drive-in theatres we frequented, the Jefferson and the Chalk Hill. “It has been said that teens used to pile into the trunk of the car so that only the driver had to pay to enter. “

Junior High School, this before they were called Middle School, was L.V. Stockard. These years were the best and helped transition us from kids to young adults. I was fortunate enough to be in the Drill Team and also had amazing teachers. A notable distinction of that school is that Stevie and Jimmie Vaughn attended. They were younger so I didn’t know them, but I do throw out their names when I am trying to impress.

The DFW famous Aunt Stelle’s snowcones, Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

We began to branch out, geographically speaking. We would patronize Aunt Stelle’s, play miniature golf at Shadybrook in Cockrell Hill, take the bus “down on Jefferson,” to visit Sears, Red Bryans, McCrory’s, the Army/Navy Store, and other notable places.

On occasion, we would bowl at Bronco on Ft. Worth Avenue. It had been built where Mustang Village had previously been. We lived there for about a year when I was around ten, so I was always intrigued that I bowled on the land on which I had previously lived.

An advertisement for the opening of J. Curtis Sanford’s establishment, Bronco Bowl, Jun. 30, 1961, courtesy Dallas Morning News. 

Other hot spots were the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, and the Wynnewood Theatre in Wynnewood Village. The latter was a robust shopping center that offered a wonderful array of shopping opportunities.

Lake Cliff Pool Park, Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

On the most special of occasions, we would go to Lake Cliff Park. It would involve the obligatory trip across the street to the Polar Bear, after photos were taken at the beautiful park, which I now know was once an amazing complex of pools, skate rinks, and theatres.

Mary and friends at the State Fair. Photo courtesy Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

The biggest treat of all was taking to the bus to the State Fair of Texas. We would be given $5. We had a free ticket from school, so the $5 was all ours for spending money. We would meet at Big Tex, just like everyone does now, but quickly we would run to the Midway, where we would ride the Wild Mouse, try to peak in the Side Shows, get treats at the Women’s Building, and watch the Hootchie girls at the Cotton Club Revue, as they wiggled to the song, Green Onions. We would stay until almost dark, returning home via the bus and with money to spare.

Looking back, and I do that a lot now, those were the best of times. Little did I know about the rich history of the Community or the people who were instrumental in creating it, but I now have a great appreciation for all of them. ~A girl from Oak Cliff, aka ‘an Oak Cliff girl’

 

 

Mary’s sister in front of Polar Bear Ice Cream. Photo courtesy Mary Catherine Newton Maxwell

Our Facebook Groups;
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/memoriesthroughatexaslens/
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]]> https://meminc.org/oakcliffgirl/feed/ 30 5302 GENE COOK, ‘BOOGIE MACHINE’ & PLAYBOY https://meminc.org/genecook/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=genecook https://meminc.org/genecook/#comments Sun, 02 Jun 2019 17:57:09 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1049

So many headliners at Playboy - Chevy Chase, Jesse Lopez, Mel Torme, Charley Pride, Professor Irwin Corey - we didn't get along so well. He was a grabber and grabbed Cathy's tush. I chased him all across the club and folks thought that it was part of the show. Luckily for him Tony Signori grabbed me and got me to settle down! The dance team that was there had moved on and were working the Playboy Club circuit. That was the 'Dance Machine'. While I was Maitre'd I spoke to our boss Tom Labella about our dance group, "The Boogie Machine" with Cathy and Rick Marshall. We auditioned for Joe Cimino and he hired us. Our time there at Playboy club is what truly validated us. It put us on the map. Before that we were working different places around Dallas, Texarkana and other small gigs. We had to work to book them, but when we got the gig at Playboy, it was really the start of something special. Doors really began to open for us, not to mention the other stuff like having a seamstress to make our costumes which we had always done ourselves.

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Gene Cook

Playboy of Dallas Maitre’d – Entertainer, “Boogie Machine”

Interview by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director Memories Inc.

The Boogie Machine, Courtesy Rick Marshall, Cathy Luchessi and Gene Cook

Paul: Gene, can you tell me about growing up?

Gene: I am from a small town in Louisiana called Bastrop, when I was about 5 we moved over to the north Houston area. I ended up going to McArthur HS, playing baseball and basketball.

McArthur HS under construction. December 1961. Courtesy MLive.com

About 6 weeks after graduation from high school, I ended up getting married and had two sons, Sean and Heath. During the second year of marriage, I got an invite from the Astros to come to a tryout camp. I went and did pretty well but during the event I twisted my ankle and couldn’t finish. However there was a scout from the California Angels there who invited me to a camp in Shreveport. So all of a sudden I signed a deal to go to camp with the Shreveport Captains in AAA ball, had a great camp and got an offer from the Angels. My wife didn’t want me to go out on the road, I digressed and lost the opportunity I had been working for all my life. 

After about 5 years, I ended up getting a divorce. My roommate Danny and I moved to Dallas. And that’s where life really changed. Dallas was totally different from Houston, definitely a much faster paced lifestyle.

I remember we went to the Adolphus for a show where ‘Buddy + 2’ was headlining. I had never danced before but I was a quick study and picked it up quite well. I started dating one of the dancers and ended up auditioning for Buddy. I still remember doing his solo number, ‘Bad’ and blowing him away.

I joined the dance team, but I knew dancing wouldn’t pay the bills so that’s when I got the job at Kenray Ford and of course, that’s where you and I met.

Ad for LeJardin at the corner of Park/Twin Hills and Greenville Ave. Courtesy Dallas Morning News

Paul: Those were the days. We spent a lot of nights at leJardin, #3 Lift and a few other dance spots.

Gene: Oh yes. And one day you told me we needed to go to the Executive Inn to see this dancer named Cathy Luchessi. That was a real turning point for me. She became my dance and life partner for the next couple of decades. Just a fantastic person. 

Paul: Tell me about coming to the Playboy Club

Gene:  You kept bugging me to come to work with you, so I finally relented. Wow. We probably made $100 each the first night, pretty good money for 1978.

I guess you and I worked together for about a year running the front room at Playboy. We really learned how to work it because we communicated so well. Who would have thought there was an art to seating people? There were folks you wanted close to the action that helped that action, other folks that preferred to be in the back, you learned pretty quickly to read people. And because we learned how to do that, the tips were pretty generous.

We were really making great money. Then my dance group came on board and I was double dipping. I would be in my tux working the front room, run to the dressing room and change for our dance gigs, do them – then run back and change into my tux, sweat dripping from every pore. Whewwww! And then we started doing two shows a night. That was absolutely crazy!

Bunnies Kim and Christine, courtesy Rick Marshall

Paul: I seem to remember you opening a bottle of champagne one night and the cork flew right across the room.

Gene: Oh my gosh yes. It almost hit Nick Felix in the head. It was he, Beth and Pat Applewhite. I was pretty new at it and wasn’t paying enough attention. Thank goodness no one was hurt. And also Nick was a Bunny magnet. They loved that shock of white hair – and he wasn’t shy with the tips!

Paul: I still remember the ‘fin’.

Gene: The $5 bill. And a $10 was a sawbuck – the $20 was a double sawbuck. But I really liked the CNote! We’d get one of those every now and then.

Paul: I remember a Saudi Arabian prince that would come in. The first night he gave me a $50 bill. 

Gene: I don’t think that guy had any idea how much money he had. He threw money around like crazy.

Paul: Who were some of the celebrities you remember?

Gene: Oh man, so many. Chevy Chase, Jesse Lopez, Mel Torme, Charley Pride, Professor Irwin Corey – we didn’t get along so well. He was a grabber and grabbed Cathy’s tush. I chased him all across the club and folks thought that it was part of the show. Luckily for him Tony Signori grabbed me and got me to settle down!

Paul: And then there was dancing.

Gene: Oh yes. The dance team that was there had moved on and were working the Playboy Club circuit. That was the ‘Dance Machine’. While I was Maitre’d I spoke to our boss Tom Labella about our dance group, “The Boogie Machine” with Cathy and Rick Marshall. We auditioned for Joe Cimino and he hired us.

Our time there at Playboy club is what truly validated us. It put us on the map. Before that we were working different places around Dallas, Texarkana and other small gigs. We had to work to book them, but when we got the gig at Playboy, it was really the start of something special. Doors really began to open for us, not to mention the other stuff like having a seamstress to make our costumes which we had always done ourselves

Paul: Wasn’t there a dance routine with the Bunnies for ‘Saturday Night Fever’?

Gene: Oh yes. You may remember that we got the video of “Saturday Night Fever” before the movie came out. They wanted us to be ready the premiere showing with some dance routines and that’s how our show for Saturday Night Fever began. We wrote a bunch of different routines for both that and “Star Wars”. We also got the video before “Grease” came out and premiered it at Playboy.

Gene and Cathy dong a number to the “Grease” album music on the Playboy dance floor. Courtesy Gene Cook and Rick Marshall

Hugh Hefner and Playboy had some great connections with John Travolta and some of the other folks involved and I guess that’s how they got those videos so early.

Paul: And there were other events you were part of.

Gene: Yes indeed, we did all sorts of things. We did a St. Valentines Day Massacre by dressing up like them and running around in these old era cars, driving around Dallas with a bunch of Bunnies, machine guns in hand, we ‘robbed’ a bank – they even had it set up at a real bank!

We had so much fun, we did several special shows at Good Morning Texas, WFAA, coaching the Bunny softball team. Those days playing semi-pro ball really paid off. Once they found that out, I would get the call anytime baseball was involved.

And there was the dance floor itself. I had broken my ankle playing basketball with Dallas Cowboy’s Harvey Martin, Drew Pearson, Too Tall Jones and some other guys at a church. But I had to dance so I got a walking cast, added a heel onto it and did my shows in it. I broke two casts dancing. The shows didn’t stop. As a matter of fact I fell off the edge of the dance floor one time. I was doing a spin and ended up cracking the glass on the edge of the floor! The cast fell off, but I got right up and finished the routine.

One of the most embarrassing moments in my career happened there. I had gone back to change in the dressing room and it included white satin pants – we all dressed in the same costumes. I think it was Rick and Judith that were with us. Cathy and I came off the floor, Rick and Judith came in in their white satin. We were changing “Night Fever” where the Bunnies danced with us. So there were a bunch of Bunnies back in the dressing room.

Several of the Bunnies over the main bar in the disco area. Courtesy Dallas Morning News

And then I broke my zipper. Dang… the Bunnies are ‘down there’, pinning me up so I can do this routine. We were flying, we had maybe 60 seconds, so we all shot out of there. And then I notice all these folks in the audience looking ‘downwards’ – I’m thinking the worse. Once I got a look down there were all the blood spots all over these white satin pants, two distinct lines of red up and down the front where the pins caught me. Definitely my most embarrassing moment!

Paul: And then your dance career took off and I was left looking for another Gene Cook to work with.

Gene: Sorry about that. (both laugh)

Paul: Tell me about the circuit.

Gene: Our dance team worked at Playboy for about a year before we decided to get on the circuit. It was about a 6,000 mile round trip. Oddly enough we ran into the same dance group we had replaced, the ‘Dance Machine’ out in Century City while they were working the Playboy Club there. They had just finished their gig so we stayed with them a couple of days to rest up before we went on to Phoenix for our next show. We also met up with Frankie Avalon and his wife and his eight kids out in LA, we really loved those guys.

What a good time we had. And it all came from working at the Playboy Club.

Gene, Judith and Cathy at Loews Anatole in their “Wiz” show. Courtesy Gene Cook

After that we did a lot of work in Dallas, we added Judith as a 4th, and did a lot of work at the Crocodile Club at Loews Anatole.

Rick, Cathy and I had six great years together. Then Cathy and I got an offer from Carnival Cruise lines to come to work there. They only wanted a dance duo, so that broke the group up. Judith had recently joined the group, and she was about to get married. Rick went back to being a DJ. 

We worked for Carnival for several years, we really loved. The first night I met Jackie Welsh who was very instrumental in me wanting to become both a great entertainer and a cruise director. I saw him doing his Midnight Special and I knew exactly what I wanted to do for the foreseeable future.

Gene and Cathy on board the Tropicale for Carnival Cruise Lines. Courtesy Gene Cook.

Cathy and Gene in one of the “Fun Ships” brochures. Courtesy Carnival Cruise Lines

And then you came to work for Carnival in the Purser’s Office and life was good!

Paul: Indeed. We had some great times and went to places I would never would have been able to afford to go.

Gene: I worked for 4 years for Carnival waiting for a Cruise Director, learning how to do everything. Began to realize that it was going to be several years before that took place, I was way down the pecking order.

Paul: Tell me about RCCL.

Gene: One day, we were approached by a fella from Royal Caribbean who was a spotter. He had already figured out how valuable we were and told me that I would be a Cruise Director for RCCL in no time. He said for us to talk it over and call him back. So Cathy and I spent the day talking and decided to make a move. So we gave our two week notice to CCL. 

It was a fantastic decision, in my 4th week at Royal Caribbean they made me a Cruise Director, mainly thanks to Ray Rousse, aka Lord Rousse. That guy was the patron saint of Cruise Directors!

It was a great time for us. But eventually Cathy wanted to go back stateside. I really wasn’t ready to give the life up yet, so after two decades, all of a sudden we were no longer partners. 

Then my Mom starting getting sick so I ended up leaving the ships anyway. I moved to Dallas at first to work with you at The Gold Club. Spent a couple of years doing that and driving back and forth to Conroe. I moved there not too long before she passed away.

After that, I moved to Tyler and started a business, Dance Doctors. Had several good years with my friend, Nick Felix Jr.  

Once that business ran its course, I decided to move back to the Conroe area to be around my family. It’s been fantastic to really connect with Heath and Sean and my grandkids. My sons pastor a church in Willis.

I started a Dance Ministry, “Steps in Faith” that has turned into a real blessing for my family and I.

All in all, it’s been a wonderful life. I really wouldn’t change a thing. I have found so many life-long friends. Life has been wonderful.

Cathy with Sean, Gene and Heath Cook. Courtesy Gene Cook

Our Facebook Groups;
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If you would like to donate a few dollars to keep articles like this coming, please Click Here! We are a fully approved 501c3 non-profit. Your donations are deductible, see your CPA.

All copyrighted materials included within Memories Incorporated dba Memories of Dallas are in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 related to Copyright and “Fair Use” for Non-Profit educational institutions, which permits Memories Incorporated to utilize copyrighted materials to further scholarship, education, and inform the public. Memories Incorporated makes every effort to conform to the principles of fair use and to comply with copyright law.

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]]> https://meminc.org/genecook/feed/ 1 2252 VICKI HANKS RODGERS https://meminc.org/vickihanksrogers/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=vickihanksrogers Sun, 02 Jun 2019 17:29:58 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=1041

"I worked at some rock and roll clubs like Sneaky Petes, Mother Blues, but primarily at Sneaky Petes there in Medallion Center. Then I heard about the Bunny search in the summer of 1977. It was absolutely crazy. They had us go through all the different preliminary, sending in pictures, resumes. That was the first elimination. Then they notified us, then we all came in. You came in through this big gate, filled out your information, attached some pictures, they would look it over and then they would setup callbacks if they liked you. Then after that interview, they would let you know if they wanted you to come back in for the final group. They did a story on me when the Bunny search happened in the Scene magazine for the Dallas Morning News. I was pretty cocky back then and told them 'I may not be the best looking, or have the best body, or be #1, but I can definitely be #99!'"

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Vicki Hanks Rodgers

One of the original Playboy of Dallas Bunnies, also at Mother Blues and Sneaky Pete

by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Inc.

Paul: If memory serves, you were a waitress before you came to Playboy, weren’t you?

Sneaky Pete’s in Medallion Center, between Abrams and Skillman on NW Highway. Courtesy Buddy Magazine

Vicki: Oh yes, I worked at some rock and roll clubs like Sneaky Petes, Mother Blues, but primarily at Sneaky Petes there in Medallion Center.

The Bunny Search in Dallas. That’s Vicki next to the gal with the white headwrap. Photo courtesy Vicki Hanks Rodgers

Then I heard about the Bunny search in the summer of 1977. It was absolutely crazy. They had us go through all the different preliminary, sending in pictures, resumes. That was the first elimination. Then they notified us, then we all came in. You came in through this big gate, filled out your information, attached some pictures, they would look it over and then they would setup callbacks if they liked you. Then after that interview, they would let you know if they wanted you to come back in for the final group.

I seem to remember that we were told going to hire 99 Bunnies from that first group. We were told to wear a one piece leotard or dance-skin. I remember I wore a pretty racy bathing suit that was really low cut. They did a story on me when the Bunny search happened in the Scene magazine for the Dallas Morning News. I was pretty cocky back then and told them ‘I may not be the best looking, or have the best body, or be #1, but I can definitely be #99!’

Paul: Tell me about some of the other Bunny hopefuls at the Search

Vicki: There were just so many girls there and they came from all walks of life. Lots of them were very well educated, others were in college, or teachers, what-have you.

And for myself, I had two young children. Unfortunately, my boyfriend had committed suicide a few months before so I was by myself and needed this job badly. Plus Playboy offered many of us a great opportunity to work a flexible schedule. That was pretty scare in those days, dealing with children or going to school while working. And we could also go out and participate in any of the various fundraisers. I did a lot of the sports things with the various Dallas Cowboys, the Dallas Tornado and Ducks Unlimited. Those were always fun.

Paul: How did you like working there?

Vicki: I just have so many good memories of Playboy. Nobody ever pressured you to do anything like photo spreads or centerfolds. Playboy might let us know that the photographer is going to be there on such and such a day and if you wanted to go over and talk to him, you could.

And something else that I loved about Playboy, I took off work to have Amanda, my third child. I think I left in Oct of 78 and came back in March of 79. They were always really cool about those things. As long as you were a good employee, they worked around whatever you needed.

“The Six Million Dollar Man”, Lee Majors is surrounded by Bunnies in the showroom. Photo courtesy Vicki Hanks Rodgers

Paul: Tell me about the mirror wars – ‘day vs night’ Bunnies

Vicki: It was kinda like a little rivalry between the day Bunnies and the night Bunnies. Day shift would leave these ‘nasty’ messages (said with a chuckle) on the mirrors in the Bunny hutch… we had some fun. But for the most part we all got along pretty well. You know how it is, when you have a bunch of females all working together it can get pretty crazy.

Paul: I seem to remember a bit of jealousy when one of the gals posed for Playboy magazine.

Vicki: Oh yea. Most of them were probably jealous they didn’t have the body these other girls had!

Paul: And I think everybody was kinda jealous of Cathy Gobel, she was in the November 1977 issue.

Vicki: Oh my god, yes. She was absolutely beautiful. She had a perfect body, perfect smile – and the sweetest personality in the club. But really, who could hate her? She was just this little sweet Southern girl. Just so pretty.

Paul: I pretty much stayed in the the front room most of my time, My immediate boss was Tom Labella, remember him?

Vicki: Oh, everybody loved Tom. I loved the bosses up there so much, especially the first group from Boston. They were so much fun to work for. Joe Cimino, Tom Labella, Joe Pergolla, all those guys. And you were so cool!

Paul: Thanks so much!

Vicki: And remember Kevin from Boston, he was fun. He dated Vangie for a long time. Later on Pat came to the club and he was a great guy to work with.

Frankie Avalon being attacked by wild Bunnies! Photo courtesy Vicki Hanks Rodgers

Paul: Who were some of the other non-Bunny folks that you remember.

Vicki: Oh, I remember Dan Nolte, I think he worked in the front and then became a manager. Then there was this guy Charlie. When I came back from having my baby, he was back there dressing with the Bunnies! In the Bunny dressing room trying on the Bunny outfits! He was so fun, what a character. We had a lot of fun.

Paul: Tell me about some of the celebrities you met there.

Vicki: Oh gosh, where do I start? Of course we all remember Professor Irwin Corey, he was hilarious, JP Morgan, she was so sweet, David Clayton Thomas from Blood, Sweat and Tears, Mel Torme, the Velvet Fog, Lainie Kazan, Chuck Berry, Hughes Corporation, Frank Sinatra Jr, Frankie Avalon, James Darren, Charley Pride, George Gobel, just so many!

Paul: Why did you leave Playboy?

Vicki: I was there until about the end in 1982. Took off with my wild boyfriend! We kept our place in Dallas but we also had a place in Florida that we went to.

Paul: Vicki, thanks so much for your time. As always, its been a delight talking to you

The Playboy Bunny football team. Photo courtesy Vicki Hanks Rodgers

Our Facebook Groups;
– Memories of Dallas Private
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http://www.facebook.com/groups/MemoriesofTexas/
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– Memories Through a Texas Lens
https://www.facebook.com/groups/memoriesthroughatexaslens/
– Memories of Texas Music
http://www.facebook.com/groups/MemoriesTexasMusic/ 

If you would like to donate a few dollars to keep articles like this coming, please Click Here! We are a fully approved 501c3 non-profit. Your donations are deductible, see your CPA.

All copyrighted materials included within Memories Incorporated dba Memories of Dallas are in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 related to Copyright and “Fair Use” for Non-Profit educational institutions, which permits Memories Incorporated to utilize copyrighted materials to further scholarship, education, and inform the public. Memories Incorporated makes every effort to conform to the principles of fair use and to comply with copyright law.

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]]> 2251 PLAYBOY – PART 1 https://meminc.org/playboy/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=playboy https://meminc.org/playboy/#comments Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:51:33 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=474 Do you know where the downtown McDonald's is on Commerce Street? That was where the Playboy club was supposed to be. It used to be the Aaron Brothers Fur and the Dorsey Building. It was a 6 story building that everyone tried to buy but nobody could get the deal done. I was friendly with them. The reason I wanted to buy it, is it is an entire city block. You could make an entire circle around the location which was highly unusual in downtown Dallas. So anyway, I knew the guys that owned it and went ahead and bought it with the idea we were going to put the Playboy Club there.

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Playboy of Dallas

 by Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Inc. 

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness… if Charles Dickens had been born a century later, he could have been describing the golden age of nightclubs.

And did that ever apply to the Dallas nightlife scene. And Playboy of Dallas was at the forefront.

Bunnies, Bunnies, Bunnies… on the disco floor in the Main room. Courtesy of an anonymous Bunny!

It was a different era, a time gone by. Cigarette smoke filled the rooms. The beautiful people came out in droves, dressed to the 9s. Seems like every penny of the paycheck went to wardrobe, hair styling, cool shoes, accessories, cologne or perfume. Dallas had recently changed the liquor laws and the club scene was going crazy.

The Playboy club itself was in a building officially known as Expressway Tower, locally as Cowboy Towers as they were headquartered there, or as the folks that worked there, simply 6116. It was on the corner of Central and Yale, now called SMU Boulevard. The 15-story building had been built in 1967 to house several of the Murchison’s businesses, specifically the Dallas Cowboys.

However, that particular property was not the one first intended to house the Playboy Club. More on that later from the first owner and the man responsible for bringing Playboy to Texas, Lenny Licht.

In its heyday, Playboy of Dallas had a reported 50,000 keyholders.

Lenny Licht

the original owner of Playboy.

Paul: Lenny, thanks so much for giving us this interview. Can you tell me about how Playboy of Dallas came to be?

Lenny: The Playboy deal was always interesting to me because it really started out as a bet. We were officing at 2001 Bryan Tower in the mid-1970s. There were about eight or nine of us who would meet up at the top at the 2001 Club. I remember Mike McCullough said, ‘We’re gonna make you a bet. We bet you $5,000 you can’t bring Playboy to Texas’.

Lenny Licht and his wife Gina. Courtesy Lenny Licht

So what happened was I was accepted to Harvard Law School, but I had to take some undergrad courses first. During that time I spent a lot of time in Boston and that’s where I met Christie Hefner and other people from Playboy.

After this challenge from Mike, I decided to talk to Christie and told her ‘You haven’t opened a new Playboy Club in 12-14 years, right? How would you like to open one in Texas?’

She replied that they always wanted to open one in Texas but they did FBI investigations and the people that tried to open them didn’t pass the FBI tests.

I told her I would pass that test of the FBI so she said to come on up to Chicago and meet everybody. After meeting all of them, they said ‘We would like you to have that franchise if you pass all the other requirements…’ which of course I did. They ended up selling me the franchise for $25,000, which included everything in the state of Texas.”

Paul: Lenny, what was your connection to Joey Cimino?

Lenny: Playboy was the one that recommended the architect Girard Cuchini, and also Joey Cimino who owned several clubs and restaurants in Boston. We met up in Boston and then we all flew to NY and toured some clubs up there. That’s how I got Joey as the Manager of the club in Dallas and how Girard came to design the Dallas Club.

Dorsey Building, the “original” home of Playboy of Dallas. Courtesy Mac Patterson

It’s kind of a funny deal. Do you know where the downtown McDonald’s is on Commerce Street? That was where the Playboy club was supposed to be. It used to be the Aaron Brothers Fur and the Dorsey Building. It was a 6 story building that everyone tried to buy but nobody could get the deal done. I was friendly with the people that owned it though. The reason I wanted to buy it, is it is an entire city block. You could make an entire circle around the location which was highly unusual in downtown Dallas. So anyway, I knew the guys that owned it and went ahead and bought it with the idea we were going to put the Playboy Club there.

Then I became friends with Gene from the TEFCON construction company which was owned by the Murchison family. They also owned Expressway Towers. There was a 25,000 sq ft restaurant that had opened a few months earlier that had gone bust, Chateau Madrid. I met with Gene and the guys from Murchison and they said we’ll cut you a deal on this restaurant space. So I went ahead and sold the Aaron Brothers building to McDonald’s and pretty much doubled my money.

Paul: So this was your baby from the start, and you invited Joel and Mark in, correct?

Lenny: Yes, that is correct. It was my deal and I needed about a million and a half dollars and I didn’t want to put in all the money so I got Mark Robertson involved. Mark was close friends with Joel McQuade. He introduced me to Joel, Joel was in the computer leasing business.

We turned out to be great friends. Every day at 5pm I would be at the backgammon tables at Elan, we always had a table reserve and Joel would meet me there and we would play backgammon until 11 at night and that’s pretty much how Playboy came about, Joel put up most of the money.

Paul: Speaking of money, I know you put up $25k for the franchise. What were some of the other costs?

Lenny: It cost about about a million and half dollars to build the club out. If I was gonna do it, I was gonna do it right. I felt like my only competition was the Venetian Room down at the Fairmont Hotel back then for the big-name show acts. That was the only place that had big names like the Platters, the Supremes, and so forth. If I was going to have a club that drew the big names, it was going to have to be first class from the furniture to the showroom.

I had a half a million dollar a year entertainment budget. People like Mel Torme, Lanie Kazan, Hughes Corporation, Jose Feliciano, Frankie Laine, Della Reese, and so many others – I competed with the Venetian Room for the same acts.

Paul: The question everyone wants to know, tell me about Hugh Hefner.

One of our Bunnies, Bunny Terry with Hugh Hefner at the Club. Courtesy Terry Locke Parrish

Lenny: I only met him a couple of times. I met him once in Chicago before we opened up the club, then again when he was in the middle of moving from Chicago out to Los Angeles. The thing that really sticks out in my memory of Hef is that he drank up to twenty-six Diet Pepsi’s a day! He had a Diet Pepsi thing, you rarely saw him with one not in his hand. He was really an interesting character.

I really liked him. And he really, really wanted to build a club in Dallas. Dallas had been his next choice of clubs if he had been able to take on another one.

Paul: Tell me about the Bunny Search

Lenny: That was down at the Fairmont Hotel. We had 2,500 applicants and we hired 125 people. That was pretty crazy. Ron Chapman was one of the judges and kept things lively.

Paul: Lenny, skipping forward a year, why did you sell your part of the club?

Lenny Licht: About a year after I was in it, I sold my piece to Joel. He bought me out and I was pretty happy. I came from the oil and gas business and as it turned out the club business just wasn’t for me. I wasn’t really a club person, I didn’t drink. So going to the shows and having dinner was about it for me.

Paul: Wasn’t that when the management changes came around?

Lenny: Yes, I think so. I wasn’t really involved but I think the Boston crew pretty much left and Joel brought in some other folk.

In retrospect, the crazy thing is, if my my dad hadn’t been a lawyer, my brother-in-law hadn’t been Dean at the University of Dallas and wrote me the letter of recommendation for Harvard, if I hadn’t met Christie Hefner there in Boston doing some undergrad work, hadn’t gone to the Playboy Club, if Mike McCullough hadn’t bet me $5,000 I couldn’t get the Playboy to Dallas – any one of these dominoes would have stopped Playboy from ever coming to Texas.

The 6116 Expressway (aka Cowboy) Towers. Playboy was located in the two story annex on the opposite side of the building. Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Jill Bogan Day-Schuler

one of the Bunnies hired during the Bunny Search:

Jill: I was one of the original Bunnies. It was crazy. Even though they hired over a hundred of us, we had to weed out the ones that found out it was hard work.

Bunny Jill, photo courtesy Jill Bogan Day-Schuler

Paul: So that tells me that you were probably a waitress before.

Jill: Yes, waitress and room service for a hotel, the Flagship Inn in Arlington. I grew up in Hurst when it was a much smaller place, so coming to Dallas was cool. And I also worked at The Old Church.

During the Bunny search, we had to meet with the Bunny mother, then we got a callback for more interviews, either one or two. Next was the catwalk.

I remember going home to bed sick as there were just so many beautiful women there, I was thinking ‘oh my god, there is no chance at all’. Just absolutely gorgeous women. Anyway I think I got a call telling me that I had been hired. I went crazy.

Paul: Tell me about your first day

Jill: Well I was one of the last Bunnies on the floor. They had me float the first night. Of course I was petrified, it was kinda intimidating the first time you walked out there. I was nervous to go out in the costume, then I saw the other girls in them and realized it wasn’t that big a deal for us. Nobody stared at you like you were all by yourself. You blended in with a bunch of other Bunnies.

I’m sure my experience came in handy working at the Old Church. I already knew how to work hard.

Paul: Tell me about working the front room.

Jill: I remember that disco floor! They had the grooves in them and our heels kept getting caught in the floor.  And the main bar had those really neat stainless steel tops but the corners would snag our pantyhose. We had to wear two pair so when you had to replace them, it got really expensive, very, very quickly.

Paul: And the bunny hutch?

Jill: It was lots of fun, lots of girls, lots of mirrors, lots of glitter all over the floor, Ruby back there talking about all her men. wearing her most expensive Halston, and Cathy Goebel back there stretching, she was probably the first girl I knew that worked out a lot. This was back when women were afraid of working out as they were afraid they would get muscles. We’d go back there and get ready and do last minute touches, put glitter on our shoulders and chests…

Paul: And the Bunny gear.

Bunnies of 1978, Kelly Murphy, Cathy Goebel, Monica Walker and Pamela Rawlings in Playboy Magazine. Courtesy Playboy magazine. That’s Bill Wagner bartending. In my job, I worked about 10 feet away from that bar… what a tough job, but somebody had to to it! BTW – they would have a contest to see who had the best bikini lines that day. I got to judge a few times…  

Jill: Those Bunny uniforms, it was like wearing a corset all night. And those 4″ stiletto heels. I remember crying one night because my feet hurt so bad, my calves would be cramping – we would go back in this little room next to the showroom. One of the bus guys would get us a tub full of ice and we’d stick our feet right into them for about 5 minutes before we could go back on the floor.

Paul: Do you remember the Cowboys coming in?

Jill: Oh yea. Their headquarters was still upstairs so they were always around. Tony Dorsett was there all the time. Golden Richards – he was a cutie, Roger Staubach, Randy White, Too Tall Jones and Harvey Martin.

Paul: I don’t remember seeing Coach Landry down there a lot except for dinner shows.

Jill: Me neither, but lots of the other coaches were, Tex Schramm was there for an event.

Paul: I know you have some great pictures with Journey and the Babys at Playboy. Tell me about that

‘Journey ‘ and ‘The Babys’ in the back of the club in the showroom. That’s Bunny Jill in the black Bunny outfit. Photo courtesy Jill Bogan Day-Schuler

Jill: Ha! I cant believe that I was close to John Waite in that picture – and I loved The Babys. I think that’s what made Journey so mad at me, Neil Schon took a liking to me right away. He didn’t like that I liked The Babys more. I remember one of the guys from Journey following me back inside the dressing room! I did end up going out with Neil for a while. It didn’t last a long time, he was on to another gig.

But I did go out with Gary Puckett from the Union Gap for a long, long time. He was a really cool California dude and he can still sing really good today. He was really mellow and really taught me a lot about nutrition and health and stuff.

Paul: When did you leave Playboy?

Jill: Oh, I was there to the day they shuttered the doors. From the day they opened until the bitter end.

I made so many friends at Playboy. I really love those gals. Funny how you don’t skip a beat when you see them again.

The Bunny shoes. Available to purchase at our Gift Shop.

Tracy Locke Custer

Playboy Bunny

Paul: Welcome Tracy! So glad we have a few minutes to talk. Can you tell me a little bit about your time at Playboy?

Tracy: I was very young, only 19. I didn’t realize the magnitude of being a Playboy Bunny until much later in life, even after being chosen for a Playboy centerfold and shooting with Arny Freytag. Back then all that stuff really didn’t mean a lot to me.

Some great genes in that family! Bunny sisters Tracy and Terry. Courtesy Terry Locke Parrish

Paul: How did you first find out about the Playboy Bunny search?

Tracy: My sister Terry was already hired. I wasn’t part of the original search, I came around about a year afterward I think. Terry kept trying to get me to come work there, finally, I did. Also, as I was so young they didn’t put me on the floor. I ran the gift shop and worked the front door checking Keys. I worked the floor a little bit but pretty much stayed up front.

No matter who you were, as soon as you got off the escalator and turned the corner, there I was.

Paul: Who were some of the celebrities you met there?

Tracy: I met Hugh Hefner one night when he came into the club. And of course the Cowboys. Tony Dorsett, Too Tall Jones, Hollywood Henderson and several others. Also Professor Irwin Corey, JP Morgan, Ben Vereen and Frankie Avalon. And Terry dated Ricky Nelson, he was just cute as heck.

Paul: And of course Thomas Henderson’s wife Wyetta was a Bunny there.

Tracy: Oh yes, she was so pretty.

I had just met my future husband – and also was working with Playboy Magazine on pictorial to be a Playmate about this time so I didn’t get out much with you guys. I spent most of my time with my boyfriend.

I remember that I had to have my mother sign the deal with Playboy for the centerfold shoot as I was only 19, too young to sign for myself. I shot the centerfold with Arny over in a house on the M streets. He had to come to Dallas as I wasn’t old enough per Playboy to travel. But then I became pregnant so they released me from the contract, I think that was late 78 or early 79. I had a 4 year contract with them. I remember Vicki Burns was in charge for them back then.

My sister Terry and I went over to a hotel to check out the pictures. I remember talking to Vicki and asking her what my options were since I was pregnant. She said ‘we can just let you out of your contract’ and I told her that lets just go ahead and do that – which in retrospect was crazy. I wasn’t thinking about the money or anything other than the fact I was gonna be a mother. I call her my “million dollar baby”

Paul: So it might have worked out for the best.

Tracy: Oh yes. I might have gone out to Hollywood and gotten into all the craziness out there

Paul: About how long did you stay at Playboy?

Tracy: It was probably about a year. I had a family, a jealous husband and to top it off one of the Managers asked me to come in when I was sick, which I did, then told me I had to stay for a double shift. That was it for me.

It was quite an experience for sure. I was only 19, so I really wish I had been more observant and paid attention to the small things. It really didn’t mean a lot to me back then, and I really regret that

Charley “Chuck” Robert

was one of the first two DJs at Playboy;

Paul: Tell me a bit about your time at Playboy

DJ Charley “Chuck” Roberts. photo courtesy Mr. Roberts

Charley: Going to work for “a Playboy Club” at 21 years old was mind blowing to say the least. As it turned out more so for friends, family and acquaintances than myself. Jeff Stone and I were the first DJs when the club opened. I had been a musician and DJ in nightclubs since I was 16 and I left a DJ job at a hot club that paid more than double what I was offered at Playboy to take the position. OK I’m not fooling anyone – there were the ladies. Past that though, even at 21 I knew that the organization was going to give me training and resume depth that I couldn’t receive anywhere else – and it did.

The 1st year was all very glamorous. Michael Seldon and Mike Roberts (KLIF Radio) made a introduction tape for me that I played each night as the Dance Room opened. Of all the memories that I have from that incredible experience (including a girl that I dated coming in and, upon seeing all the lovely Bunnies, saying “well I guess you’ll be happy here” and I never saw her again) was the Boston influences. This was the Salsoul Disco era (Magic Bird of Fire etc.) and these guys brought in many new musical influences that we had not been exposed to in Dallas. The Rice and Beans Orchestra comes to mind – Tommy LaBella’s favorite. Tommy and Joe dressed to the Nines and had Swagger. For a 21 year old that was something to admire and attempt to mimic. Oh yeah …. and there was the ladies

Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader Debbie Kepley and Playboy DJ Jeff Stone on the Playboy dance floor

Paul Heckmann –  Maitre’D

I came from a small town outside of Waco, went to college in a small town down in deep South Texas and had moved to Dallas the day after our final football game in December of 1976. Moved in with my college roommate Bill Bronstad who was working in Accounting for Sanger Harris.

I had a job selling cars for Ken Grantham at KenRay Ford on Forest Lane. Had to take that job as I didn’t have a car, only my Kawaski 750. It as there that I met Gene Cook,  a fellow salesman who is still my best friend to today. More to that story later

The stars started to align for my change of direction. Ken Grantham sold the dealership to Rick Middlekauf who changed the system and commission structure.

Paul and one of the Playboy Bunnies

Paul and one of the Playboy Bunnies. I think I was modeling a tux for one of the companies that we got our tuxes from here. Photo courtesy Paul Heckmann

I started looking around to see what was available. I had gone out with a Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader named Debbie Kepley about that time who introduced me to her agent, Sarah Norton. So I started doing some modeling and acting gigs but knew that wouldn’t pay the bills. There wasn’t enough work, I wasn’t skinny enough – and my memory was… what was I saying?

My buddy Gene introduced me to Pat Applewhite who simply knew everybody in Dallas. She knew I had been a bouncer in a couple of clubs and took me up to Playboy to meet Joe Cimino.

Mr. Ciminio pretty much hired me on the spot. I went out and rented a tux as that was about all I could afford and started work that evening.

So here’s this small town kid, small town college, all of a sudden surrounded by some of the most beautiful women in Texas. Describing it as a kid in a candy store would be an understatement.

There were four areas of the club that the Bunnies worked, the front door/gift shot, the disco/buffet front room,the game room and of course the showroom. I had plenty of energy and muscle so they put me in the front room where the most action was. We also backed up the Bunnies at the front door/gift shop which was more or less in our line of sight.

My first night there I met Joe, the Maitre’D. He had been there since Day One and showed me the ropes. This guy was smooth. I had no clue how to work a crowd to get tips, open a bottle of 1959 Dom Perignon, pour wine correctly or simply be suave and sophisticated. He taught me all of that and more.

Thank goodness I learned fast. Just weeks after I started, Joe quit and all of a sudden this small town kid is running the main room for the Playboy Club. The Playboy Club. I couldn’t believe it myself.

Anyway, I ran the room by myself for a bit with other managers coming to help as they could get it to me, I finally talked Gene Cook to come work with me. There are just some folk who you know who are simply on the same wave length as you. That was us, sometimes I feel like we shared the same brain – and we worked the floor the same say. I will let Gene tell you his story in Part 2 of this article.

We had some of the best Management I’ve worked with. Joe Pergola, Joe Cimino, my boss – Tommy Labella and of course Tony Signori. If you’ve ever met someone that you quickly know could rip your arm off your body and use it to stir a drink, that was Tony. I still have my arms so I guess we were paisan.

I stayed at Playboy for just over a year. Changes were coming. We all knew it. I knew a few folk from other clubs, reached out to them and took a job at Papagayo’s working with a friend, Rod Keishnick.

Bunnies at the front bar in the main room. That’s the disco floor next to them. Photo courtesy one of our Bunnies

Daniel Truden – Service Attendant and Bartender

I was a bartender at Playboy Dallas for over two years. I was friends with Skeeter, the original bar manager. We were from the same town in Pennsylvania before he moved to Boston and went to work for Joe Cimino. He offered me and a couple friends an opportunity to work in Dallas at the club when he was home for Christmas and we were in Dallas within a month.

Bunnies polishing Daniel’s bar.

Mostly I remember the Bunnies, bartenders and service attendants that I worked with every day. So many Bunnies. I think there were 80 when I started. A new class had just trained. So many!

Paul: Who were some of the folks you worked with?

Daniel: I remember Danny McGauley, really likable guy who could disco. He worked Living room mainly. Eric Seeb was Showroom manager when I started as a Service attendant, Caesar Vindigni was his assistant. Tommy Labella and Joe Pergola were management also. Joe Cimino was in charge and was real cool with us because we were Skeeters friends.

I also remember Chef Green who was pretty cool once you got to know him and really professional. And then there was Mark in Accounting and also Candice who worked there for a time. Then of course you had Bernice and Lenore, Bunny mother and seamstress.

George was the name of the night watchman for the building who we saw every night. Jim Fritzel worked daytime, he was the food and beverage guy I think, and quite the character. Oh, and OD – Mr. O’Donnell had the showroom job for a while but what he primarily did was book entertainment.

Paul: How long were you Service Attendant before becoming a Bartender?

Daniel: We first worked as Service attendants while we learned drinks. The plan was to become bartenders and then open a new club with the Cimino management in Houston and eventually Hawaii. Of course that didn’t work out as the Boston group changed to the Chicago group a few months later but Pete Couvel took Frank (my friend and cousin from Pa) and I into his company as bartenders for the next two years. And what a great two years it was.

Bunnies working the other side of Daniel’s bar. He had it tough! Courtesy Vicki Hanks Rogers

End of Playboy of Dallas, Part 1

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]]> https://meminc.org/playboy/feed/ 9 474 PLAYBOY – PART 2 https://meminc.org/playboy2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=playboy2 https://meminc.org/playboy2/#comments Wed, 17 Apr 2019 17:43:53 +0000 https://memoriesofdallas.org/?page_id=613

I was a Display manger at Dillards in Euless. I just got home from my long drive home from work and my roommate told me that she had heard on radio that they were auditioning for Playboy Bunnies at the new club.
She talked me into it, so I grabbed my maroon leotard and high heels and went on up there. There were hundreds of girls there so I really didn't think I would get the job. All we did was walk across the stage, look at judges and smile like there was no tomorrow, I think that's probably why I got it. Then we went into our Bunny training, several girls didn't even make it through that. We had to know our Bunny manual and of course practiced the Bunny dip about a thousand times." Tonda Davis Petty

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Playboy of Dallas, Part 2

Part 2 of a 2 part story

By Paul Heckmann, Executive Director, Memories Inc. 

Go to Part One

Vicki Hanks Rogers “Bunny Vicki” – One of the original Bunnies hired from the Bunny Search

Paul: If memory serves, you were waitress before you came to Playboy, weren’t you?

Vicki Hanks Rogers with Frankie Avalon at Playboy of Dallas. Courtesy Vicki Hanks Rogers

Vicki: Oh yes, I worked at some rock and roll clubs like Sneaky Petes, Mother Blues, but primarily at Sneaky Petes there in Medallion Center.

Then I heard about the Bunny search in the summer of 1977. It was crazy. They had us go through all the different preliminary, sending in pictures, and resumes. That was the first elimination. Then they notified us, then we all came in. You came in through this big gate, filled out your information, attached some pictures, they would look it over and then they would set up callbacks if they liked you. Then after that interview, they would let you know if they wanted you to come back in for the final group.

I seem to remember that we were told going to hire 99 Bunnies from that first group. We were told to wear a one-piece leotard or dance-skin. I remember I wore a pretty racy bathing suit that was really low cut. They did a story on me when the Bunny search happened in the Scene magazine for the Dallas Morning News. I was pretty cocky back then and told them ‘I may not be the best looking, or have the best body, or be #1, but I can definitely be #99!’

Paul: Tell me about some of the other Bunny hopefuls at the Search

Vicki: There were just so many girls there and they came from all walks of life. Lots of them were very well educated, others were in college, or teachers, what-have you.

And for myself, I had two young children. Unfortunately my boyfriend had committed suicide a few months before so I was by myself and needed this job badly. Plus Playboy offered many of us a great opportunity to work a flexible schedule. That was pretty scare in those days, dealing with children or going to school while working. And we could also go out and participate in any of the various fundraisers. I did a lot of the sports things with the various Dallas Cowboys, the Dallas Tornado and Ducks Unlimited. Those were always fun.

Paul: How did you like working there?

Vicki: I just have so many good memories of Playboy. Nobody ever pressured you to do anything like photo spreads or centerfolds. Playboy might let us know that the photographer is going to be there on such and such a day and if you wanted to go over and talk to him, you could.

And something else that I loved about Playboy, I took off work to have Amanda, my third child. I think I left in Oct of 78 and came back in March of 79. They were always really cool about those things. As long as you were a good employee, they worked around whatever you needed.

Vicki in her black Bunny suit. Courtesy Vicki Hanks Rogers 

Paul: Tell me about the mirror wars – ‘day vs night’ Bunnies

Vicki: It was kinda like a little rivalry between the day Bunnies and the night Bunnies. Day shift would leave these ‘nasty’ messages (said with a chuckle) on the mirrors in the Bunny hutch… we had some fun. But for the most part we all got along pretty well. You know how it is, when you have a bunch of females all working together it can get pretty crazy.

Paul: I seem to remember a bit of jealousy when one of the gals posed for Playboy magazine.

Vicki: Oh yea. Most of them were probably jealous they didn’t have the body these other girls had!

Paul: And I think everybody was kinda jealous of Cathy Gobel, she was in the November 1977 issue.

Vicki: Oh my god, yes. She was absolutely beautiful. She had a perfect body, perfect smile – and the sweetest personality in the club. But really, who could hate her? She was just this little sweet Southern girl. Just so pretty.

Paul: I pretty much stayed in the the front room most of my time, My immediate boss was Tom Labella, remember him?

Vicki: Oh, everybody loved Tom. I loved the bosses up there so much, especially the first group from Boston. They were so much fun to work for. Joe Cimino, Tom Labella, Joe Pergolla, all those guys. And you were so cool!

Paul: Thanks so much!

Vicki: And remember Kevin from Boston, he was fun. He dated Vangie for a long time. Later on Pat came to the club and he was a great guy to work with.

Bunnies at the lower bar in the Main room. Courtesy Vicki Hanks Rogers

Paul: Who were some of the other non-Bunny folks that you remember.

Vicki: Oh, I remember Dan Nolte, I think he worked in the front and then became a manager. Then there was this guy Charlie. When I came back from having my baby, he was back there dressing with the Bunnies! In the Bunny dressing room trying on the Bunny outfits! He was so fun, what a character. We had a lot of fun.

Monica, Terry, Camille and Dan Nolte, photo Terry Locke Parrish

Paul: Tell me about some of the celebrities you met there.

Vicki: Oh gosh, where do I start? Of course we all remember Professor Irwin Corey, he was hilarious, JP Morgan, she was so sweet, David Clayton Thomas from Blood, Sweat and Tears, Mel Torme, the Velvet Fog, Lainie Kazan, Chuck Berry, Hughes Corporation, Frank Sinatra Jr, Frankie Avalon, James Darren, Charley Pride, George Gobel, just so many!

Paul: So tell me a bit about when you left Playboy.

Vicki: I was there until about the end in 1982. Took off with my wild boyfriend! We kept our place in Dallas but we also had a place in Florida that we went to.

Paul: Vicki, thanks so much for your time. As always, its been a delight talking to you

Courtesy Sheila Stone, with her identical twin Moira. On the left is Piper Perry and Tara Keene. Featured in Playboy in March 1981

Tonda Davis Petty – “Bunny Tonda”

Paul: Tell me about your time at Playboy.

Tonda: I Started working at the Playboy in 1977 as part of the second Bunny search.

Paul: How did you find out about the search?

“Bunny Tonda”, courtesy Tonda Davis Petty

Tonda: I was a Display manger at Dillards in Euless. I just got home from my long drive home from work and my roommate told me that she had heard on radio that they were auditioning for Playboy Bunnies at the new club.

She talked me into it, so I grabbed my maroon leotard and high heels and went on up there. There were hundreds of girls there so I really didn’t think I would get the job. All we did was walk across the stage, look at judges and smile like there was no tomorrow, I think that’s probably why I got it.

Then we went into our Bunny training, several girls didn’t even make it through that. We had to know our Bunny manual and of course practiced the Bunny dip about a thousand times.

Bunny training for the new, yet to open Playboy of Dallas club. Courtesy Vicki Hanks Rogers

Paul: Tell me about your first day.

Tonda: I remember that during my first shift I was so, so nervous. I was afraid I would spell a drink on a client because we had to hold the tray with left hand, do the Bunny dip and deliver their drink over our body.

I worked some nights but found that I liked the day shift better. I worked the loft a lot which is right above the main bar, that was where Too Tall Jones, Tony Dorsett and the Cowboys would hang. We were in the same building, so they stopped by all the time.

MLB Hall of Famer Mickey Mantle with some of the Bunnies including Tonda. Photo courtesy Tonda Davis Petty

As a Bunny we did a lot of charity work, I gave blood for the Red Cross and I remember going to the Children Burn unit to cheer up the kids. I went on the celebrity golf tournament, they had the Bunnies drive the golf carts for the players. I drove Mickey Mantel!

Paul: Were you there at the end?

Tonda: Toward the end of the club closing, I was part time, I would take shifts when I could. I do remember folks taking the Bunny uniforms, which is where I got mine.

I loved being a Playboy Bunny, it was one of the best times of my life and I met some of the best friends I have had all my life.

Tonda in her black Bunny outfit. Courtesy Tonda Davis Petty

Rick Marshall – Entertainer “Boogie Machine”

Paul: Tell me about your journey and how you came to Playboy?

Rick: I guess you could say it started when I answered an ad for a Club DJ job in Texarkana called Pizzazz. It was on the Arkansas side of the border so we could stay open and serve liquor until 4 in the morning. But all they had was music and liquor, no other entertainment and it’s really hard to keep a club open that way. They were all pumped as they had a DJ “Directly from Dallas, Texas!”

So anyway I’m talking to a friend of mine who managed the Mariott on I30. He said its gonna be hard to make this club successful they way they are doing it now so he had a suggestion. He knew I could dance so he says “why don’t you start a dance group and do a show?” So that kept ringing in my ear and I headed to leJardin in Dallas and found a friend of mine, Jerry and recruited him. He could spin like a top! He said “I know this guy named Gene that can dance pretty good. He’s working down at the Apparel Mart”. Well that was where I got all my clothes from, so we met Gene down there and it was an instant bond. And we started doing shows in Texarkana and Dallas.

Rick dancing with “The Boogie Machine” on the Playboy disco floor, courtesy Rick Marshall

This went on for a while, then I found out Gene was dating Cathy and I knew she was an incredible dancer. So the 3 guy formula went out the window and Cathy replaced Jerry. I was so happy we made the change and of course I was so impressed with Gene. He handled all the business, all the finances, the bookings, everything.

Paul: So then Gene went to work at Playboy.

Rick: Oh yes. He was working up there and we would do shows when he got a night off. Then he got us an audition that we absolutely nailed. He told Tom LaBella about us and Tom told the management. Tom was really good to us, he helped us get things going up there

So we went to work at Playboy, we were the house entertainers. And I was a kid in a candy store, not only were all these beautiful women but stars everywhere. My creative juices started flowing, and we came up with all these different types of shows, Saturday Night Fever, Grease and Star Wars. There was another one, the St Valentines Day Massacre show. They actually gave us a budget to go out and promote all of these shows, so for this one I got to drive this old Cadillac Convertible, me and a couple of Bunnies would drive around town promoting it. So I got this 1929 Thompson sub-machine gun, we dressed up in Zoot suits and went into the bank for a fake robbery. We had so much fun!

Rick and Fran “Cathy” Luchessi doing one of the Playboy promotions. Courtesy Rick Marshall

I guess you the timing was perfect for dance crews as Saturday Night Fever had just come out. Another thing was that we always had to make our own costumes before. The Bunny Mother and the Seamstress made all of our costumes for our Playboy shows! I still remember that both Gene and I gave her old pairs of Angel Flight pants and she took them apart to use as a pattern for both the blue and white satin pants we used.

It was a unique thing we had going on there. Costumes, budgets for promotion, all these lights and of course the Bunnies. Never discount the effect that a Playboy Bunny has.

Rick, Cathy and Gene “The Boogie Machine”, courtesy Gene Cook and Rick Marshall

And the money! We worked 4 nights a week, 2 shows a night and made $400 bucks each. That was a lot of money in 1977.

And also that’s where I met Chuck Roberts, I remember how he was beat mixing and matching beats from one song to another and I was just blown away. He would use his leg and just stomp it close to the turntable to keep the beat going. I can easily say Chuck was responsible for the 23 clubs I’ve DJ’d at over the years. Thanks to him I really kicked off my DJ career. I really enjoyed going to hear him wherever he was, at Packard’s or Bellringer. His ability to blend music and find obscure songs that could match, he was probably the best I ever heard.

Paul: And after work?

Rick: We had so much fun. Everybody got along so well, nobody was fighting. We hung out together when we were off work. The Bunnies, the DJs, the Management. We were just all so close there. It was just a magical time. And the Bunnies – I remember Jan, Country Jan I called her, Marjie, Char, Misty, Monica, Kathy Goebel, there were just so many. I loved them all!

Paul: Tell me about when you left Playboy.

Rick: Well I guess we did shows there for about a year. Gene had been negotiating with Playboy to go on their circuit but it didn’t work out so we decided to go out on our own. We were booked at some of the Graham brothers clubs, at the Hollywood Palladium and came back to Phoenix and did some shows there. We went on this really long trip, I think it was about a month, then we came back to Dallas and started doing shows at Loews Anatole, The Crocodile. And all that training from Chuck Roberts came into play. We couldn’t get the DJs to hit their marks on our intros and our exits so I ended up showing the DJs how to do their jobs. And that led to me getting a job there as a DJ.

And then Rod Keishnick comes over and listens to me. And tells me that he wants to hire me to come work at Papagayo. But that’s another story

Fran “Cathy” Luchessi-Waslaski – Entertainer, “Boogie Machine”;

Paul: Tell me a bit about your experience at the Playboy Club.

Gene Cook, Cathy Luchessi and Rick Marshall for the Boogie Machine, photo courtesy Rick Marshall

Fran: Dallas nightlife was really happening in the late 70’s and 80’s. We had such a variety of clubs to choose from. As a professional dancer there were always opportunities to perform. I have to say that nothing compared to working as a dancer at the Playboy Club. It was prestigious to say you performed there.

Paul: What areas did you work in?

Fran: There was the living room stage for shows and there was the big showroom that brought in big names names such as Frankie Avalon. Management treated us great providing us with costumes, meals, drinks and a good salary. The staff, bartenders and the Bunnies were sweet and very friendly. We even did special events with the Playboy Bunnies dancing with us on Channel 8 News.

I probably ended up working three years at the Dallas Playboy Club with The Boogie Machine and two other dance companies from Chicago that were brought in as resident dance companies. The audiences were always appreciative of the entertainment. It was always fun seeing the regulars show up. I have nothing but good memories of my experience performing there.

Gene Cook and Cathy Luchessi on the disco floor at Playboy. Courtesy Gene Cook

Gene Cook – Maitre’d – Entertainer, “Boogie Machine”

Paul: Tell me about coming to the Playboy Club

Gene:  I guess you and I worked together for about a year running the disco area. We really learned how to work that room because we communicated so well. Who would have thought there was an art to seating people? There were folks you wanted close to the action that helped that action, other folks that preferred to be in the back, you learned pretty quickly to read people. And because we learned how to do that, the tips were pretty generous.

We were really making great money. Then my dance group came on board and I was double dipping. I would be in my tux working the front room, run to the dressing room and change for our dance gigs, do them – then run back and change into my tux, sweat dripping from every pore. Whewwww! And then we started doing two shows a night. That was absolutely crazy!

Paul: I seem to remember you opening a bottle of champagne one night and the cork flew right off.

Gene: Oh my gosh yes. It almost hit Nick Felix in the head. It was he, Beth and Pat Applewhite. I was pretty new at it and wasn’t paying enough attention. Thank goodness no one was hurt. And also Nick was a Bunny magnet. They loved that shock of white hair – and he wasn’t shy with the tips!

Paul: I still remember the ‘fin’

Gene: The $5 bill. And a $10 was a sawbuck – the $20 was a double sawbuck. But I really liked the CNote! We’d get one of those every now and then.

Paul: I remember a Saudi Arabian prince that would come in. The first night he gave me a $50 bill. 

Gene: I don’t think that guy had any idea how much money he had. He threw money around like crazy.

Paul: And then your dance career took off and I was left looking for another Gene Cook to work with.

Gene: Sorry about that!

Gene and Cathy on board the Tropicale for Carnival Cruise Lines. Courtesy Gene Cook

The dance team that was there had moved on and were working the Playboy Club circuit. That was the ‘Dance Machine’. While I was Maitre’d I spoke to our boss Tom Labella about our dance group “Boogie Machine”. It was me, Cathy Luchessi and Rick Marshall. We auditioned for Joe Cimino and he hired us.

Our time there at Playboy club is what truly validated us. It put us on the map. Before that we were working different places around Dallas, Texarkana and other small gigs. We had to work to book them, but when we got the gig at Playboy, it was really the start of something special. Doors really began to open for us, not to mention the other stuff like having a seamstress to make our costumes which we had always done ourselves.

Paul: Who were some of the celebrities you remember?

Gene: Oh man, so many. Chevy Chase, Jesse Lopez, Mel Torme, Charley Pride, Professor Irwin Corey – we didn’t get along so well. He was a grabber and grabbed Cathy’s tush. I chased him all across the club and folks that that it was part of the show. Lucky for him Tony Signori grabbed me and got me to settle down!

Paul: Wasn’t there a dance routine with the Bunnies for ‘Saturday Night Fever’?

Gene: Oh yes. You may remember that we got the video of “Saturday Night Fever” before the movie came out. They wanted us to be ready the premiere showing with some dance routines and that’s how our show for Saturday Night Fever began. We wrote a bunch of different routines for both that and “Star Wars”. We also got the video before “Grease” came out and premiered it at Playboy.

Hefner and Playboy had some great connections with John Travolta and some of the other folks involved and I guess that’s how they got those videos so early.

Paul: And there were other events you were part of.

Gene: Yes indeed, we did all sorts of things. We did a St Valentines Day Massacre by dressing up like them and running around in these old era cars, driving around Dallas with a bunch of Bunnies, machine guns in hand, we ‘robbed’ a bank – they even had it set up at a real bank!

We had so much fun, we did several special shows at Good Morning Texas, WFAA, coaching the Bunny softball team. I played professional baseball for the AAA Shreveport Captains, a farm team for the California Angels. Once they found that out, I would get the call anytime baseball was involved.

And there was the dance floor itself. I had broken my ankle playing basketball with Harvey Martin, Drew Pearson, Too Tall Jones and some other guys at a church. But I had to dance so I got a walking cast, added a heel onto it and did my shows in it. I broke two casts dancing. The shows didn’t stop. As a matter of fact I fell off the edge of the dance floor one time. I was doing a spin and ended up cracking the glass on the edge of the floor! The cast fell off, but I got right up and finished the routine.

One of the most embarrassing moments in my career happened there. I had gone back to change in the dressing room and it included white satin pants – we all dressed in the same costumes. I think it was Rick and Judith that were with us. Kathy and I came off the floor, Rick and Judith came in in their white satin. We were changing “Night Fever” where the Bunnies danced with us. So there were a bunch of Bunnies back in the dressing room.

And then I broke my zipper. Dang… the Bunnies are ‘down there’, pinning me up so I can do this routine. We were flying, we had maybe 60 seconds, so we all shot out of there. And then I notice all these folks in the audience looking ‘downwards’ – I’m thinking the worse. Once I got a look down there were all the blood spots all over these white satin pants, two distinct lines of red up and down the front where the pins caught me. Definitely my most embarrassing moment!

Paul: Tell me about the circuit.

Gene: Our dance team worked at Playboy for about a year before we decided to get on the circuit. It was about a 6,000 mile round trip. Oddly enough we ran into the same dance group we had replaced, the ‘Dance Machine’ out in Century City while they were working the Playboy Club there. They had just finished their gig so we stayed with them a couple of days to rest up before we went on to Phoenix for our next show. We also met up with Frankie Avalon and his wife and his eight kids out in LA, we really loved those guys.

What a good time we had. And it all came from working at the Playboy Club.

After that we did a lot of work in Dallas, we added Judith as a 4th, and did a lot of work at the Crocodile Club at Loews Anatole.

Rick, Kathy and I had six great years together. Then Kathy and I got an offer from Carnival Cruise lines to come to work there. They only wanted a dance duo, so that broke the group up. Judith had recently joined the group, and she was about to get married. I think Rick went back to being a DJ

All in all, it was a great season in our lives, my life especially, I wouldn’t change a thing. Had some great life-long friends there with whom I am still in touch today.

 

“Bunny Jan” courtesy Jan Dudley Gentile

Jan Dudley Gentile – “Bunny Jan”

Paul: Hi Jan, if I remember correctly, you came from KZEW, didn’t you?

The KZEW logo 98FM, Dallas. Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Jan: Oh yes. I had worked for ‘The Zoo’ as we called it in the early 70s. I think they came on the air in 1973, and I came aboard about 8 or 9 months after that. So I was heir to the really big days, the Fan Jam, Zoo World and all that craziness. I played an on-air character named Wicked Wanda, I had to ad lib every morning. It was absolutely crazy. My primary job was administrative, but they used me for voice work, commercials and basically where-ever they wanted. Lots and lots of on air work. They had a couple of females there which was kinda of unheard of in those days, Beverly Beazley and a gal named Joan.

Paul: Tell me about how you came to be a Bunny.

Jan: I was simply amazed that I was hired. I think any Bunny that you interviewed would say that. I came in about 1979. I found out about the job while I was there at KZEW. Playboy PR sent over a fella named Ross Boling. He would bring some of the acts over from the club for us to interview on the air and occasionally would take them downstairs and put them on WFAA TV, Ch 8. It was really convenient for him as the TV station was downstairs and were the two stations, one AM and one FM upstairs.

So Ross tells me that I should come over and try out to be a Bunny. So I went over one day to try out, and then came back to work. Before the day was over everyone in the building was talking about it. And this was the Belo building, so there were probably 200 people there – that crazy buzz was everywhere. And then I got a call from Playboy that they hired me. So that was that.

Paul: And I remember you telling me that you were a pinch older than most of the other Bunnies. You were already hard at work on a career in Radio.

Jan: Some of these girls were 8-9 years younger than me! Fresh out of High School, maybe even their first job, who knows what. They really didn’t have to give up a career to be a Bunny like I did.

It was a great time. I really enjoyed the Bunnies. However, maybe because I was older, I kinda look back on my time at Playboy a bit differently. It was extremely competitive. We pushed for the best schedules, the best stations, who could connect with the celebrities the best. While so much was positive, there also was a downside to being a Bunny. It was an environment of some absolutely stunning and beautiful girls who were constantly competing with each other. You had to be on time, or you might lose your shift. We had to be weighed and if you gained weight they may not put you on the floor. It was very structured in the way we had to look, act, we couldn’t be seen sitting down, taking a bite of food, or taking a drink. We had to sneak into the kitchen to do all those things.

Paul: Tell me about the cigarettes.

Jan: Oh yes, the cigarettes. I didn’t smoke, but I would have to go buy them for the customers. They were $1 a pack back then. We would open the pack, light a cigarette and put it back into the pack and deliver it to them. Cough cough.

I remember the black Bunny suits. Only the senior Bunnies would get a black suit at that time. It was a real status symbol for us in Dallas. And the more senior Bunnies got the best shifts. But I have to say I loved my Bunny Blue outfit better anyway.

I worked all over the club. The disco, the game room, the showroom and the gift shop. They put me where-ever they needed me.

Paul: Who was your favorite celebrity you met there?

Jan: Well the most famous was Charlton Heston. I mean, you must met Moses. As for my favorite, definitely Waylon Jennings. I really loved that guy, just as suave as could be. Just so much fun! I listen to his son Shooter Jennings now. We really lived in such a great time for music.

Paul: Why did you leave Playboy?

Jan: So after about a year at Playboy, Belo actually lured me back to work directly for the President Dave Tate Lane, the most beloved President of WFAA-TV ever. Originally he was the WFAA Sports announcer, then was promoted to GM. Verne Lundquist replaced him as sports anchor. Dave was greatly mourned when he passed away. I really had ‘hero worship’ for that man.

Bunnies Barbie and Ruby, in the Playboy of Dallas Showroom. Courtesy Playboy magazine

Thomas “Hollywood” Henderson – Former Dallas Cowboy Pro Bowler and Super Bowl Champ

Paul: Good afternoon Thomas! Where are you at these days?

Thomas: I’m out here in Boca Rotan, Florida

Paul: Tell me a bit about growing up and how you got to Dallas.

“Anyone who said the 70s in Dallas wasn’t fun, wasn’t there!” Thomas Henderson. Courtesy Thomas Henderson

Thomas: Well I grew up in Austin, from kindergarten to 10th grade. I actually graduated from High School in Oklahoma City. My grandmother had moved from Austin to Oklahoma City around 1965. We were all staying at her house, then one day a trailer pulled up and just like that my grandma was gone.

So by the time I was in 10th grade, there were 7 people in a 2 bedroom, I was the oldest kid and said ‘I gotta get out of here’. So I moved up to OKC with my grandma

Paul: Tell me about football and how you got to Langston.

Thomas: It was tough because Oklahoma had this rule that if you transferred without your parents from a border state, you were in-eligible for football. So I couldn’t play my Junior year, so I worked to help out. And I also worked with the film crew to help shoot the games. But I couldn’t play football. They did allow me to play basketball as a Junior, then I finally got to play football as a Senior. I was All-City at Douglass HS there at DE but I missed out on a lot of recruiting from the major colleges as I only played one year and ended up at Langston.

Paul: So you had a really great career there, a two time All American and then the Cowboys came calling

Thomas taking down former Cowboy QB, Broncos QB Craig Morton in the Super Bowl. Courtesy Thomas Henderson

Thomas: Oh yes. I came to Dallas as part of the draft in 1975 that they called “The Dirty Dozen”. They took me in the first round.

Paul: Now you and I first met at Playboy where your girlfriend Wyetta was working. How did you meet her?

Thomas: We were playing Seattle at the Kingdome, the first game ever played there. Wyetta had gone to college with Mike Hegman and Too Tall Jones at Tennessee State. So she happened to be in Seattle, saw them and jumped on the elevator with us. We hit it off right away. And that was that.

Paul: Now tell me about Playboy.

Thomas: I was actually part of the first Bunny Search. Ron Chapman was the MC. I was picking the original Bunnies! I was the only football player. It was me, Ron Chapman and Playboy Management.

Wyetta found out right away that she was picked to be a Bunny. So she went through all the training and started to work with the the first group.

Paul: I have a short story to tell you. I was up toward the front of the club, and out of the corner of my eye I see Wyetta running as fast she can with her long legs, those 4″ stiletto heels and her Bunny ears flopping away. A customer had stiffed her on her tip and fire and brimstone was about to be unleashed.

Thomas: (laughs) That was Wyetta!

Paul: Did you go to any of the shows there?

Wyetta Henderson, then Thomas’s wife with country music superstar Eddie Rabbit. Photo courtesy Internet included in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.

Thomas: Not so much, they had a nice showroom – but because my girlfriend worked there, I would stop by for a little bit and then head over to Papagayo, leJardin, Biffs or Confetti or the other Greenville Ave clubs.

I would also go to the African American clubs. I actually owned several of them. I made more money from them then I did from my Cowboy salary which was about $50,000 back then. Me and Too Tall owned a club at Knox Henderson called Playmaker’s Plaza. So while Wyetta was working as a Bunny, I was checking out my investments.

Our then our daughter was born in 1981. 

And by the way make sure to put this into the story “Anyone who said the 70s in Dallas wasn’t fun, wasn’t there!”

Paul: And what are you up to these days?

Thomas: You know, I’ve been sober for 35 years, I’m a Grandpa. I just had twin Grandbabies. I’m 65 years old, I am in good health. Life is good, really good. I survived my own foolishness, life has been good to Thomas Henderson.

The International Playboy Reunion in Dallas 2018

Diane Peterson – “Bunny Diane” – Playboy Model and Reunion Organizer

Paul: Greetings! Are you up in Chicago?

Diane: Oh yes. Its so cold up here! We have an ice storm coming up.

Paul: I really enjoyed the Playboy Reunion. I saw so many people that I hadn’t seen in so long! But let me get back to that. First, tell me about how you came to be a Bunny.

Diane: Well, I was a poor kid from the south side of Chicago so we really didn’t have any money. So when I was 18, I heard about a Bunny Hunt in Lake Geneva. So I went up there, but there were only 6 openings – and a ton of Bunny hopefuls. And they called me and told me I got one of those spots.

Bunny Diane Peterson, courtesy Diane Peterson

We really needed money so I worked every chance I got, lots of double shifts. I would work there during the week and drive home on the weekends.

Gail was our Bunny Mother there. She had used me for a few promotions and then she suggested I try modeling and she sent me to a photographer which I didn’t realize at the time would end up being a good thing for me.

About that time we heard rumors that the London and Lake Geneva clubs were going to close. Needless to say I was pretty upset, I was one of the lowest in seniority at that time. So Gail tells me that I should transfer to the Chicago Playboy.

So I went to Chicago. I still wasn’t 21 so I couldn’t serve liquor so I was the Door Bunny and Gift Shop Bunny.

Paul: So you were deep in the heart of Playboy Country in Chicago.

Diane: Yes, I was a Bunny at Lincoln Park and Playboy headquarters was over on Walton Street.

Then Richard Smith asked me to try Playboy Models. And that was a real turning point. I was working a lot and making a lot of money. I ended up being on 72 different posters for them.

Paul: So how did you get into hosting the reunions?

Diane: I went to my first reunion in back in 2014 in Baltimore. Everything was supposed to have been setup by the organizers, but they didn’t have the hotels booked correctly. I got there, and I had no room. The whole reunion ended up being one cocktail party and a main event, which was a 3 hour cruise on the bay for $125. And to top it off, while we were out on the bay, this lady goes crazy, starts a fight. Captain wants to turn the boat around but I talked him out of it. I told him we would have her sit at our table and not get up. When we got back, the police picked her up at the dock. So that was my first reunion, babysitting.

A couple of months later I get a call from Marsha, who organized the Baltimore event. She and her husband had decided to not do these any more after the fight and she asked me if I wanted to take over. I really felt that I could make it a great event so I accepted.

For my first event in 2016 I called up Hef (Hugh Hefner) and asked him if I could set this up for 80 Bunnies, which was the biggest number they have ever had. So we did the next one in LA. We ended up with 220 Bunnies at the Playboy Jazz Festival and for the main event 291 Bunnies showed up.

Our 2018 International Playboy Reunion in Dallas, courtesy Diane Peterson

For the next event, I had decided to do it myself to keep the expenses down. I know a lot of the ladies are on a fixed income so I sent out a questionnaire, what would you like to see? So we ended up choosing Dallas due to the weather, the great club they had there and good transportation. We were able to do the MeetNGreet, the disco party, the Boot Scootin’ Luncheon and then the main event and all the while keep the costs down.

It was a great turnout, we had over 263 people there with 218 Bunnies. We really had a great time.

Paul: So did I, I thought it was fantastic. So tell me what’s next on the reunion agenda.

Diane: The next one is in Jamaica, in Ocho Rios. If any Bunnies want to contact you for the next couple of reunions, let me know. 

Paul: Absolutely.

Diane: Hoping that the next reunion after Jamaica will be in Chicago at the site of the original Playboy Club, the Knickerbocker. That will be celebrating the 60th year of Playboy. We’re aiming for May or June in 2020. And we are stretching the rules a bit. Usually we let the host city employees come plus Bunnies from everywhere, but because its the 60th birthday, we are allowing all former employees from all the clubs. It should be a really great event. 

When I see those other Bunnies there, it’s like time stood still. I loved seeing those guys. When I was a Bunny we did so much charity work, telethons, grand openings, USO Tours and speaking with the troops. We were the gateway to Playboy, we were that girl next door that you always wanted to talk to.

One last thing, when you put on that Bunny uniform, you felt like a rockstar. That costume made anybody look good. The guys that would make the sly comments would be absolutely terrified when you sat down next to them, they couldn’t talk and they could hardly move. And when I worked at Lake Geneva, oh my gosh, at Easter it was magical. The kids would be all around us, begging to have their pictures taken with a real Bunny. It was truly an incredible time.

 

Bunnies Kim and Christine, courtesy Kim Gagnon

There were a reported 50,000 key holders in the heyday of the Dallas club.

Dallas Playboy Club closes. Courtesy Dallas Morning News

In 1981 Pete Couval sold the franchise and club to Carroll Davis. Mr. Davis also purchased the San Diego club. Both closed in bankruptcy in 1982.

Today SMU Business and Finance office, and a bank have taken over that building. Little remains in the building at 6116 North Central that would remind you of the glory days the Cowboy Towers or of the Playboy Club. As time fades, so do our memories.

The Day Shift crew! Bunnies Norma, Terra, Charla, Lori, Virginia, April, Kathy, Patty and Camille – Courtesy Lori

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]]> https://meminc.org/playboy2/feed/ 8 613 Blog Post Title https://meminc.org/hello-world/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hello-world Sun, 05 Aug 2018 20:28:32 +0000 https://meminc.org/?p=1 We are looking for Bloggers speaking to the history of Dallas social scene from nightclubs to bands to restaurants… These blogs will be used on the Memories of Dallas page, our DBA

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]]> We are looking for Bloggers speaking to the history of Dallas social scene from nightclubs to bands to restaurants… These blogs will be used on the Memories of Dallas page, our DBA

The post Blog Post Title first appeared on Memories Incorporated, a Texas 501c3.

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